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I have run an ISP network, and I feel their pain. But if they sell it as unlimited and have no fair use policy, they need to honor their contract. The part of

I have run an ISP network, and I feel their pain. But if they sell it as unlimited and have no fair use policy, they need to honor their contract. The part of the T&C they point to just says they can terminate any contract for any reason. That's a pretty lame way to resolve what is basically a marketing problem -- they want to sell a bandwidth-limited service as unlimited i.e. lie about it. Say what you will about fair use policies, but at least they spell it out.

300bps 4y ago
But if they sell it as unlimited and have no fair use policy, they need to honor their contract. The part of the T&C they point to just says they can terminate any contract for any reason. First you say they need to honor their contract and then say they're honoring their contract. What's the problem? Similarly if someone runs a restaurant with an "All You Can Eat!" special and someone comes in with a 40 gallon drum and starts filling it up from the buffet, that person is going to be asked to leave immediately. There's no possible way that Hetzner could a) Predict every way someone could abuse their system and b) Put them all in their marketing materials. So they have that clause in their contract and they're using it.
- 13415 4y ago
  It's not an abuse of a system to use it in the way it was advertised. If it says unlimited, then it's unlimited. "All you can eat" means all the individual customer can eat (usually within a time frame). If you offer it and then stop offering food when customers (in your opinion) eat too much, then that's fraud.
  - 300bps 4y ago
    If unlimited means unlimited then why doesn't "all you can eat" mean all you can eat? Why are you assuming unstated restrictions on "all you can eat" when you aren't allowing unstated restrictions on "unlimited"? You literally made up the restriction of, "usually within a timeframe".
    - 13415 4y ago
      No, I didn't make up a restriction. You misunderstood. "All you can eat" offers usually contain an explicit time frame, for the obvious reason that they don't want customers to enter in the morning and re-enter in the evening. That's why I wrote "usually". If they don't, then that's their mistake and they have to literally offer all the customer can eat. The same for hosting. If you make your offer unlimited and don't make any exceptions explicit, then your offer is unlimited. The least thing you have to do is to add a little * and list the exceptions in every advertisement. Otherwise it's deceptive advertising and bait-and-switch fraud. It's really very simple.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  > The part of the T&C they point to just says they can terminate any contract for any reason. > First you say they need to honor their contract and then say they're honoring their contract. What's the problem? The contract terms don't actually say they can terminate a contract for any reason, though. They actually say they can terminate a contract "for good cause", where "good cause" is explicitly undefined. They'd be on better ground if their contract really did say they could terminate it for any reason.
walrus01 4y ago
> have no fair use policy you think an ISP the size of hetzner or OVH or similar has no TOS/AUP that they put a lot of time and thought into before publishing, and putting in the customer new-order workflow?!??!
- the_biot 4y ago
  Perhaps you could point to the document that spells out their fair use policy? Hetzner certainly didn't.
- icehawk 4y ago
  There are terms and conditions and, there's no "fair use" clauses for bandwidth in the terms and conditions. It feels a bad-faith interpretation of the "Customer uses content that impairs the regular operating behavior or the security of our infrastructure or our product" portion of section 2.7.
  - nZUC2qDyxDA3Kpe 4y ago
    It feels like the plain meaning of that sentence, to me. They are "using content" (downloading it), and it probably "impairs the regular operating behavior ... of [their] infrastructure" (how many 1Gbps servers do you think are sharing a switch? how fast do you think that switch's uplink is? now double the first and half the second because it's Hetzner :P).
    - gcbirzan 4y ago
      If using what they advertise is impacting other customers they shouldn't advertise it
      - nZUC2qDyxDA3Kpe 4y ago
        I doubt they have ever advertised that you can saturate your link 24/7 for multiple months.

300bps 4y ago

But if they sell it as unlimited and have no fair use policy, they need to honor their contract. The part of the T&C they point to just says they can terminate any contract for any reason. First you say they need to honor their contract and then say they're honoring their contract. What's the problem? Similarly if someone runs a restaurant with an "All You Can Eat!" special and someone comes in with a 40 gallon drum and starts filling it up from the buffet, that person is going to be asked to leave immediately. There's no possible way that Hetzner could a) Predict every way someone could abuse their system and b) Put them all in their marketing materials. So they have that clause in their contract and they're using it.

13415 4y ago
It's not an abuse of a system to use it in the way it was advertised. If it says unlimited, then it's unlimited. "All you can eat" means all the individual customer can eat (usually within a time frame). If you offer it and then stop offering food when customers (in your opinion) eat too much, then that's fraud.
- 300bps 4y ago
  If unlimited means unlimited then why doesn't "all you can eat" mean all you can eat? Why are you assuming unstated restrictions on "all you can eat" when you aren't allowing unstated restrictions on "unlimited"? You literally made up the restriction of, "usually within a timeframe".
  - 13415 4y ago
    No, I didn't make up a restriction. You misunderstood. "All you can eat" offers usually contain an explicit time frame, for the obvious reason that they don't want customers to enter in the morning and re-enter in the evening. That's why I wrote "usually". If they don't, then that's their mistake and they have to literally offer all the customer can eat. The same for hosting. If you make your offer unlimited and don't make any exceptions explicit, then your offer is unlimited. The least thing you have to do is to add a little * and list the exceptions in every advertisement. Otherwise it's deceptive advertising and bait-and-switch fraud. It's really very simple.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> The part of the T&C they point to just says they can terminate any contract for any reason. > First you say they need to honor their contract and then say they're honoring their contract. What's the problem? The contract terms don't actually say they can terminate a contract for any reason, though. They actually say they can terminate a contract "for good cause", where "good cause" is explicitly undefined. They'd be on better ground if their contract really did say they could terminate it for any reason.

walrus01 4y ago

> have no fair use policy you think an ISP the size of hetzner or OVH or similar has no TOS/AUP that they put a lot of time and thought into before publishing, and putting in the customer new-order workflow?!??!

the_biot 4y ago
Perhaps you could point to the document that spells out their fair use policy? Hetzner certainly didn't.
icehawk 4y ago
There are terms and conditions and, there's no "fair use" clauses for bandwidth in the terms and conditions. It feels a bad-faith interpretation of the "Customer uses content that impairs the regular operating behavior or the security of our infrastructure or our product" portion of section 2.7.
- nZUC2qDyxDA3Kpe 4y ago
  It feels like the plain meaning of that sentence, to me. They are "using content" (downloading it), and it probably "impairs the regular operating behavior ... of [their] infrastructure" (how many 1Gbps servers do you think are sharing a switch? how fast do you think that switch's uplink is? now double the first and half the second because it's Hetzner :P).
  - gcbirzan 4y ago
    If using what they advertise is impacting other customers they shouldn't advertise it
    - nZUC2qDyxDA3Kpe 4y ago
      I doubt they have ever advertised that you can saturate your link 24/7 for multiple months.