3 ms·

How is building dedicated trolley tracks cheaper than buying a bus and running it on ordinary pavement? And streetcars have no reason to be faster either. It's

How is building dedicated trolley tracks cheaper than buying a bus and running it on ordinary pavement? And streetcars have no reason to be faster either. It's easier and historically faster to have a dedicated bus lane than a dedicated trolley lane, but there's just not enough will for even that.

woodruffw 4y ago
I won't make the claim that trolleys are cheaper, in terms of initial capital. I will make the claim that they're more sustainable, in the following senses: * They make their neighborhoods more valuable to both residents and businesses, which in turn prevents neighborhood flight * Streetcars cost less over time, after their initial cost. Portland found that streetcars cost the city roughly half as much per ride as buses do, and streetcar bodies themselves last much longer than buses do[1]. Ultimately, however, we're talking about public infrastructure. It shouldn't be beholden to the lowest cost; we should be balancing cost with benefit. [1]: https://www.vox.com/2018/7/13/17570156/us-streetcar-trend-public-transportation https://www.vox.com/2018/7/13/17570156/us-streetcar-trend-pu...
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  > Portland found that streetcars cost the city roughly half as much per ride as buses do, and streetcar bodies themselves last much longer than buses do[1]. This is the same order of saving gained by switching high traffic bus routes to EV busses, since fuel is the main cost, (Lower EV maintenance is also a benefit shared by battery busses) so its a very weak claim to superiority for electric trollybusses or trams without batteries, and one that will, if it even exists today, erode over time as batteries improve in cost and performance. EV busses are similarly an up front cost for continual future savings. This is already a key part of their appeal. People buying scores of busses know their way around a spreadsheet.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Sure; don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of more bus routes! If EV makes those buses cheaper to operate, that's a big win in my book.
dangerwill 4y ago
Dedicated bus lanes almost match dedicated trolley paths for on time reliability but it doesn't address the fact that over head wire trolleys are still much more environmentally friendly than battery feed buses. You can even do over head wire trolley buses if you are absolutely wedded to never touching existing pavement. My point really is more that over head wires are so much better for vehicles with set routes than batteries

woodruffw 4y ago

I won't make the claim that trolleys are cheaper, in terms of initial capital. I will make the claim that they're more sustainable, in the following senses: * They make their neighborhoods more valuable to both residents and businesses, which in turn prevents neighborhood flight * Streetcars cost less over time, after their initial cost. Portland found that streetcars cost the city roughly half as much per ride as buses do, and streetcar bodies themselves last much longer than buses do[1]. Ultimately, however, we're talking about public infrastructure. It shouldn't be beholden to the lowest cost; we should be balancing cost with benefit. [1]: https://www.vox.com/2018/7/13/17570156/us-streetcar-trend-public-transportation https://www.vox.com/2018/7/13/17570156/us-streetcar-trend-pu...

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
> Portland found that streetcars cost the city roughly half as much per ride as buses do, and streetcar bodies themselves last much longer than buses do[1]. This is the same order of saving gained by switching high traffic bus routes to EV busses, since fuel is the main cost, (Lower EV maintenance is also a benefit shared by battery busses) so its a very weak claim to superiority for electric trollybusses or trams without batteries, and one that will, if it even exists today, erode over time as batteries improve in cost and performance. EV busses are similarly an up front cost for continual future savings. This is already a key part of their appeal. People buying scores of busses know their way around a spreadsheet.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Sure; don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of more bus routes! If EV makes those buses cheaper to operate, that's a big win in my book.

dangerwill 4y ago

Dedicated bus lanes almost match dedicated trolley paths for on time reliability but it doesn't address the fact that over head wire trolleys are still much more environmentally friendly than battery feed buses. You can even do over head wire trolley buses if you are absolutely wedded to never touching existing pavement. My point really is more that over head wires are so much better for vehicles with set routes than batteries