6 ms·

Yup, I went to buy one last year, I think the advertised price was $40k, but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" for the pleasure of doin

Yup, I went to buy one last year, I think the advertised price was $40k, but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" for the pleasure of doing business with them. I went for a Tesla Model Y instead, and I'm very happy with it.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it?
- givemeethekeys 4y ago
  To me, calling it a "dealership fee" implies I'm getting something special from the dealership in addition to buying the car from them.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    You are getting something special -- the fact that they have one on hand. :)
  - Kon-Peki 4y ago
    You are getting something special: A guaranteed financial loss. $20k buys a lot of gas, and you get to finance it too.
  - koolba 4y ago
    Of course there's a $15K markup. Something has to pay for that crappy cup of Flavia coffee you get in the waiting room.
- arijun 4y ago
  It’s in scare quotes because it’s not a fee, it’s just a way of raising the price.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > it’s just a way of raising the price All fees are a way of raising a price.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - olyjohn 4y ago
      Some fees recoup costs. Some are explicitly for the purpose of getting more money from the buyer without putting it in the list price, and aren't a cost to the dealer at all.
    - NoSorryCannot 4y ago
      No, I don't think they are. For example, a credit card processing fee doesn't raise the price of a gallon of gasoline. There is supposed to be a difference between markup and a fee. We don't have to hash out what exactly the difference is, just observe that there is a difference. It's a common grift to hide part of the price in unadvertised "fees" so that consumers will have a harder time comparing options but it is just that, a grift. It's deception.
      - greedo 4y ago
        Uh, despite the best attempts of credit card companies to hide the fact, their card processing fees do raise the price of gasoline. Before they held as much power over gas retailers, gas stations used to list a cash price and a credit price. The cash price was usually around a nickel cheaper. But now the merchant card agreements prevent having dual pricing (though some businesses try to get away with dual pricing).
        NoSorryCannot 4y ago
        I think we only care about the presentation of fees to consumers assessed separately from the advertised price. Countless costs of doing business (and markup) are built into the advertised price. At least it is very simple for the consumer to compare prices. A per-transaction credit card fee doesn't raise the unit price. Getting hung up on the evolving details of gas stations and credit card processing isn't the point.
- alldayeveryday 4y ago
  15k dealership fee is unreasonable.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    Presumably it's reasonable because it's supported by market conditions?
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Market conditions by an enforced middle man
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        The market conditions are set by the number of people trying to buy the cars and how much they're willing to pay. The dealership meets the market price, not sets it. If their fee was unreasonable people would buy other cars until the dealer dropped their prices to something reasonable.
        scottyah 4y ago
        People don’t want to buy other cars just because the dealers are colluding and raising the prices despite adding no value. When they do decide to avoid a car just because of the leeching dealerships, it hurts the manufacturer too
        oneoff786 4y ago
        If you’re an emotionless rationalist sure
    - gweinberg 4y ago
      Market conditions explain the higher price, but why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer? I think something other than the market is at work here.
- googlryas 4y ago
  It's not just supply and demand, because the manufacturers have been pissed at the dealership markups, because it makes them look bad. And the manufacturers can't do anything about it because of state enforced middlemen in the car sale process. And it's not scare quotes, I'm just using the phrase that they used, which I had never heard of before. And, it was unreasonable, because of some details which I did not include, which is that the specific vehicle was listed as for sale on their website for $40k, but only when I called did they say that it was actually only for sale for $55k. That's a bait and switch.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Well there are destination charges/dealer prep/paperwork etc. I recently had to buy a car. And by all indications low-mileage used are hot tickets right now. Had to pay something like $500 in dealership charges which is more than I've paid in the past I'm pretty sure but not highway robbery. Didn't even try to negotiate the sticker price but, to my surprise, was about to get the price for some "factory installed options" (which included a first aid kit!) added to my trade-in. So the used car situation cuts both ways. I was probably pretty lucky to get the car in "only" six weeks. But didn't even try to get a hybrid or electric.
    - PenguinCoder 4y ago
      $500 is a far cry from $15,000. It's still insane for what amounts to some paperwork and processing fees though.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        Sure. One is clearly padding. The other is we're going to add a massive surcharge and if you don't pay it someone else will. I actually consider myself lucky getting a semi-reasonable deal in a not too extended timeframe on something I'm happy with in a supply-constrained environment.
        frumper 4y ago
- tmh88j 4y ago
  >Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it? No, it's not reasonable when you're forced to go through a middleman who adds little to no value to the transaction and wants to take a massive cut. Ford is legitimately worried about dealership greed jeopardizing the success of the F-150 Lightning[1] and EV's in general, so they're moving towards direct to customer online sales for their EV's[2]. They've arguably been burned by greedy dealerships in the past with the Focus RS[3]. [1] https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-against-f-150-lightening-price-gouging https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-... [2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-online-only-with-no-dealer-markups-says-ceo-farley/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-... [3] https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-rs-dead-dealers-blame/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-...
- pipeline_peak 4y ago
  Thank you for introducing me to the term scare quotes aka shudder quotes, quibble quotes, and my personal favorite sneer quotes. People here love passive aggression.
  - haram_masala 4y ago
    If you want to call people out for passive aggression, well, that’s your choice, I guess. Not what I’d do, but hey, whatever makes you happy.
    - pipeline_peak 4y ago
      A major part of passive aggression is being subtle with hostility to avoid being exposed. If anything calling it out is poetic justice, but you’re welcome to just let it happen.
- paxys 4y ago
  If it was actually just supply and demand then these dealerships wouldn't exist at all.
sparkbII 4y ago
Are Teslas the only electrics you can buy that way?
flurie 4y ago
This price tracker[1] shows that the price of the Model Y has increased about 9-12k depending on trim over the past year. Are you happy because that's less than 15k? [1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLDgPQDJAdzY8b5Vamw-Vf3eSY/edit#gid=231426599 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLD...
- ParksNet 4y ago
  Better that excess demand is captured by the manufacturer, which can be reinvested into manufacturing, than the dealer. I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla, and its now the only manufacturer I'd consider buying from in the USA.
  - ribosometronome 4y ago
    >I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla An interesting comment considering this is above a story of Tesla cutting functionality via a software update for a customer years after purchase and demanding thousands to undo it. That sort of stuff, their lackluster QC and the erratic behavior of the CEO has me pretty skeptical of them as a company.
    - BobLaw 4y ago
      If you read the story or the comments the car had a 60kwh battery replaced under warranty but only a 90kwh was available. Procedure was to set the battery firmware to 60 kwh but for whatever reason that didn't happen. The car was then sold twice until someone found the discrepancy and fixed it. Nobody received anything less than they paid for from Tesla. The current owner may have been deceived by one of the previous sellers but that's not something your can really blame on Tesla
      - yellowapple 4y ago
        If you read the comments, you'd have seen the analogy to Apple repairing a laptop with slightly better parts and then deciding multiple years later to software-nerf it. I don't know about you, but I'd be livid - in both cases.
paxys 4y ago
If you want a Model Y immediately you will have to pay a lot more than a $15k premium. The earliest official delivery date for one is April 2023, and that's just for the premium models.
- frumper 4y ago
  Model Y performance is Aug-Oct delivery.
  - paxys 4y ago
    It is also $70K. Not exactly a reasonable comparison to a Toyota RAV4.
    - frumper 4y ago
      The Rav4 prime was 57k after all the fees. My Model Y was 61k Edit: Those numbers were numbers I experienced buying a year ago. Article numbers put some Rav4's more than current Model Y performance price.
    - brianwawok 4y ago
      In the current gas price world, whats the 10 year TCO comparison? Might not be as far off as you think..
      - frumper 4y ago
        It would greatly depend on your driving habits. I’m averaging 2k miles a month. My electricity cost averages around 4 cents/mile(14c/kWh). At my current gas prices($5.75) I’d need to get 142mpg to get 4 cents/mile. The rav4 is complicated because it’s both, but I’d get about 40% of my day on electric and 60% on gas. That means 4c/mile for the EV(even granting it’s as efficient as the Tesla which epa numbers aren’t as good) and 36mpg(epa Highway rav4 prime) on the Highway for 60% of my day. 36mpg would be about 16c/mile. So in an average day about 100 miles, it’d be 40 * .04 + 60 * .16 = 13.5c/mile averages over a day. So 24000miles/yr multiples by .04 or 0.135 and it’s $960 vs $3240. That points to in excess of $20k in savings over 10 years. If someone goes 40 miles or less a day these numbers favor a prime quite a bit more.

chrisseaton 4y ago

> but the dealership wanted to charge me a $15k "dealership fee" Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it?

givemeethekeys 4y ago
To me, calling it a "dealership fee" implies I'm getting something special from the dealership in addition to buying the car from them.
- jedberg 4y ago
  You are getting something special -- the fact that they have one on hand. :)
- Kon-Peki 4y ago
  You are getting something special: A guaranteed financial loss. $20k buys a lot of gas, and you get to finance it too.
- koolba 4y ago
  Of course there's a $15K markup. Something has to pay for that crappy cup of Flavia coffee you get in the waiting room.
arijun 4y ago
It’s in scare quotes because it’s not a fee, it’s just a way of raising the price.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > it’s just a way of raising the price All fees are a way of raising a price.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - olyjohn 4y ago
    Some fees recoup costs. Some are explicitly for the purpose of getting more money from the buyer without putting it in the list price, and aren't a cost to the dealer at all.
  - NoSorryCannot 4y ago
    No, I don't think they are. For example, a credit card processing fee doesn't raise the price of a gallon of gasoline. There is supposed to be a difference between markup and a fee. We don't have to hash out what exactly the difference is, just observe that there is a difference. It's a common grift to hide part of the price in unadvertised "fees" so that consumers will have a harder time comparing options but it is just that, a grift. It's deception.
    - greedo 4y ago
      Uh, despite the best attempts of credit card companies to hide the fact, their card processing fees do raise the price of gasoline. Before they held as much power over gas retailers, gas stations used to list a cash price and a credit price. The cash price was usually around a nickel cheaper. But now the merchant card agreements prevent having dual pricing (though some businesses try to get away with dual pricing).
      - NoSorryCannot 4y ago
        I think we only care about the presentation of fees to consumers assessed separately from the advertised price. Countless costs of doing business (and markup) are built into the advertised price. At least it is very simple for the consumer to compare prices. A per-transaction credit card fee doesn't raise the unit price. Getting hung up on the evolving details of gas stations and credit card processing isn't the point.
alldayeveryday 4y ago
15k dealership fee is unreasonable.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Presumably it's reasonable because it's supported by market conditions?
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Market conditions by an enforced middle man
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      The market conditions are set by the number of people trying to buy the cars and how much they're willing to pay. The dealership meets the market price, not sets it. If their fee was unreasonable people would buy other cars until the dealer dropped their prices to something reasonable.
      - scottyah 4y ago
        People don’t want to buy other cars just because the dealers are colluding and raising the prices despite adding no value. When they do decide to avoid a car just because of the leeching dealerships, it hurts the manufacturer too
      - oneoff786 4y ago
        If you’re an emotionless rationalist sure
  - gweinberg 4y ago
    Market conditions explain the higher price, but why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer? I think something other than the market is at work here.
googlryas 4y ago
It's not just supply and demand, because the manufacturers have been pissed at the dealership markups, because it makes them look bad. And the manufacturers can't do anything about it because of state enforced middlemen in the car sale process. And it's not scare quotes, I'm just using the phrase that they used, which I had never heard of before. And, it was unreasonable, because of some details which I did not include, which is that the specific vehicle was listed as for sale on their website for $40k, but only when I called did they say that it was actually only for sale for $55k. That's a bait and switch.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Well there are destination charges/dealer prep/paperwork etc. I recently had to buy a car. And by all indications low-mileage used are hot tickets right now. Had to pay something like $500 in dealership charges which is more than I've paid in the past I'm pretty sure but not highway robbery. Didn't even try to negotiate the sticker price but, to my surprise, was about to get the price for some "factory installed options" (which included a first aid kit!) added to my trade-in. So the used car situation cuts both ways. I was probably pretty lucky to get the car in "only" six weeks. But didn't even try to get a hybrid or electric.
  - PenguinCoder 4y ago
    $500 is a far cry from $15,000. It's still insane for what amounts to some paperwork and processing fees though.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Sure. One is clearly padding. The other is we're going to add a massive surcharge and if you don't pay it someone else will. I actually consider myself lucky getting a semi-reasonable deal in a not too extended timeframe on something I'm happy with in a supply-constrained environment.
      - frumper 4y ago
tmh88j 4y ago
>Do your scare quotes mean you think it's unreasonable? It's supply and demand, isn't it? No, it's not reasonable when you're forced to go through a middleman who adds little to no value to the transaction and wants to take a massive cut. Ford is legitimately worried about dealership greed jeopardizing the success of the F-150 Lightning[1] and EV's in general, so they're moving towards direct to customer online sales for their EV's[2]. They've arguably been burned by greedy dealerships in the past with the Focus RS[3]. [1] https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-against-f-150-lightening-price-gouging https://www.thestreet.com/lifestyle/cars/ford-warns-dealers-... [2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-online-only-with-no-dealer-markups-says-ceo-farley/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/ford-wants-to-sell-evs-... [3] https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-rs-dead-dealers-blame/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/barks-bites-focus-...
pipeline_peak 4y ago
Thank you for introducing me to the term scare quotes aka shudder quotes, quibble quotes, and my personal favorite sneer quotes. People here love passive aggression.
- haram_masala 4y ago
  If you want to call people out for passive aggression, well, that’s your choice, I guess. Not what I’d do, but hey, whatever makes you happy.
  - pipeline_peak 4y ago
    A major part of passive aggression is being subtle with hostility to avoid being exposed. If anything calling it out is poetic justice, but you’re welcome to just let it happen.
paxys 4y ago
If it was actually just supply and demand then these dealerships wouldn't exist at all.

sparkbII 4y ago

Are Teslas the only electrics you can buy that way?

flurie 4y ago

This price tracker[1] shows that the price of the Model Y has increased about 9-12k depending on trim over the past year. Are you happy because that's less than 15k? [1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLDgPQDJAdzY8b5Vamw-Vf3eSY/edit#gid=231426599 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLD...

ParksNet 4y ago
Better that excess demand is captured by the manufacturer, which can be reinvested into manufacturing, than the dealer. I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla, and its now the only manufacturer I'd consider buying from in the USA.
- ribosometronome 4y ago
  >I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla An interesting comment considering this is above a story of Tesla cutting functionality via a software update for a customer years after purchase and demanding thousands to undo it. That sort of stuff, their lackluster QC and the erratic behavior of the CEO has me pretty skeptical of them as a company.
  - BobLaw 4y ago
    If you read the story or the comments the car had a 60kwh battery replaced under warranty but only a 90kwh was available. Procedure was to set the battery firmware to 60 kwh but for whatever reason that didn't happen. The car was then sold twice until someone found the discrepancy and fixed it. Nobody received anything less than they paid for from Tesla. The current owner may have been deceived by one of the previous sellers but that's not something your can really blame on Tesla
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      If you read the comments, you'd have seen the analogy to Apple repairing a laptop with slightly better parts and then deciding multiple years later to software-nerf it. I don't know about you, but I'd be livid - in both cases.

paxys 4y ago

If you want a Model Y immediately you will have to pay a lot more than a $15k premium. The earliest official delivery date for one is April 2023, and that's just for the premium models.

frumper 4y ago
Model Y performance is Aug-Oct delivery.
- paxys 4y ago
  It is also $70K. Not exactly a reasonable comparison to a Toyota RAV4.
  - frumper 4y ago
    The Rav4 prime was 57k after all the fees. My Model Y was 61k Edit: Those numbers were numbers I experienced buying a year ago. Article numbers put some Rav4's more than current Model Y performance price.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    In the current gas price world, whats the 10 year TCO comparison? Might not be as far off as you think..
    - frumper 4y ago
      It would greatly depend on your driving habits. I’m averaging 2k miles a month. My electricity cost averages around 4 cents/mile(14c/kWh). At my current gas prices($5.75) I’d need to get 142mpg to get 4 cents/mile. The rav4 is complicated because it’s both, but I’d get about 40% of my day on electric and 60% on gas. That means 4c/mile for the EV(even granting it’s as efficient as the Tesla which epa numbers aren’t as good) and 36mpg(epa Highway rav4 prime) on the Highway for 60% of my day. 36mpg would be about 16c/mile. So in an average day about 100 miles, it’d be 40 * .04 + 60 * .16 = 13.5c/mile averages over a day. So 24000miles/yr multiples by .04 or 0.135 and it’s $960 vs $3240. That points to in excess of $20k in savings over 10 years. If someone goes 40 miles or less a day these numbers favor a prime quite a bit more.