5 ms·

Isn't it a bit akin to disclosing hidden defects for a house? If you have known about those defects, or they were properly disclosed to you when you bought the

Isn't it a bit akin to disclosing hidden defects for a house? If you have known about those defects, or they were properly disclosed to you when you bought the house, in many jurisdictions you're responsible to disclose them to the next buyer, are you not? I'm not on Tesla's side here: I have an expectation of reasonability that they're not meeting, and I feel that they've forfeited their "rights" to locking this configuration down, a long time ago. But in parallel, it seems that strictly speaking the new owner may also have some reasonable expectation that the history of the care is relayed to them upon purchase. I say "strictly" because I also understand that's not how it goes in the real world. But since were hypothesizing here...

powerhour 4y ago
The thing is this isn't a defect. Say my brand new house came with a 40 gallon water tank and it failed (didn't flood, just stopped heating). The home warranty company provided a 45 gallon replacement. Nobody would expect that to be disclosed years down the line.
- edude03 4y ago
  I think the difference is more in how you (or in this case the previous owner) sells it. To stay with the water heater analogy - what if when the water heater needs to be replaced under warranty and the company says oh hey we have 40s in stock again so we're sending you what you should have had?
  - powerhour 4y ago
    Whether or not they get the smaller units in stock, I don't have to let them into my house to install it, nor will a new owner of the home be expected to pay the difference between the 40 and 45. It's a permanent fixture. As is a battery in an electric car.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      The previous owner could have signed a rental agreement for the interim tank. If so, it wasn’t legally sold to the new house owner. (And with that comment I get voted down. Odd.)
015a 4y ago
Well, I think the issue is, no reasonable person would consider "Tesla upgraded something under warranty" as a defect. Here's another example: many car brands sell larger tires as a feature of upper trim models. Hypothetically, I take my car to the dealer to get new 17" wheels, but they're out; so they do the insane thing of saying "but we've got 19" wheels here, we'll throw those on free of charge". Four years later the next owner gets a knock on their door: "we got a crew out in the driveway swapping your wheels, you didn't pay for those". This sounds insane, but I think it only sounds insane because we're talking about software vs hardware. Since its invention, humanity has had a weird stance with software; we tolerate a lot more shit, and that toleration has allowed companies to basically get away with highway robbery. Whether that's Amazon selling eBooks then revoking them years later, game companies releasing unfinished games then promising patches months later, or Tesla issuing OTA updates, it all factors down to a really similar issue in that: software has enabled companies project greed in previously impossible ways. Maybe the previous owner misrepresented the car; or maybe they didn't, because what reasonable person would have guessed that Tesla would do this? The statement "you didn't pay for those wheels" isn't even accurate; the new buyer probably did pay for them; maybe not in this case, but hypothetically: if it looks like a P90 and quacks like a P90, its a P90, and that's the resale value. If it looks like its got 19" wheels, and it quacks like its got 19" wheels, its priced like its got 19" wheels. The buyer just didn't pay the right person.
jjulius 4y ago
>Isn't it a bit akin to disclosing hidden defects for a house? If you have known about those defects, or they were properly disclosed to you when you bought the house, in many jurisdictions you're responsible to disclose them to the next buyer, are you not? "If" is the operative word there. The first tweet says that this is the "~3rd owner of a 2013 Model S 60. At some point years ago the battery pack was swapped under warranty with a 90 pack." If the change occurred with the first owner, it's possible that the second owner didn't realize the magnitude of what they were told, or weren't even told at all, before they sold it to the next person. It's also entirely possible that whoever had the battery replaced just had absolutely no idea what had been done to it.
jabbany 4y ago
Yep! If the buyer really wanted to go for someone, and assuming Tesla didn't cave re-enable the upgrade, their best bet is to go after the previous seller for misrepresentation of a 60 model for a 90. This also happens for cars sold as-is but where the dealer knows of defects and does not disclose. To quote someone else, "as-is does not cover fraud". All in all, it probably wouldn't be worth the time and effort to actually do that though. And because the current buyer is two steps removed from the actual person who was around for the swap, they probably wouldn't actually get anything back for that effort since the middle person is also protected as they bought and sold in good faith.

powerhour 4y ago

The thing is this isn't a defect. Say my brand new house came with a 40 gallon water tank and it failed (didn't flood, just stopped heating). The home warranty company provided a 45 gallon replacement. Nobody would expect that to be disclosed years down the line.

edude03 4y ago
I think the difference is more in how you (or in this case the previous owner) sells it. To stay with the water heater analogy - what if when the water heater needs to be replaced under warranty and the company says oh hey we have 40s in stock again so we're sending you what you should have had?
- powerhour 4y ago
  Whether or not they get the smaller units in stock, I don't have to let them into my house to install it, nor will a new owner of the home be expected to pay the difference between the 40 and 45. It's a permanent fixture. As is a battery in an electric car.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    The previous owner could have signed a rental agreement for the interim tank. If so, it wasn’t legally sold to the new house owner. (And with that comment I get voted down. Odd.)

015a 4y ago

Well, I think the issue is, no reasonable person would consider "Tesla upgraded something under warranty" as a defect. Here's another example: many car brands sell larger tires as a feature of upper trim models. Hypothetically, I take my car to the dealer to get new 17" wheels, but they're out; so they do the insane thing of saying "but we've got 19" wheels here, we'll throw those on free of charge". Four years later the next owner gets a knock on their door: "we got a crew out in the driveway swapping your wheels, you didn't pay for those". This sounds insane, but I think it only sounds insane because we're talking about software vs hardware. Since its invention, humanity has had a weird stance with software; we tolerate a lot more shit, and that toleration has allowed companies to basically get away with highway robbery. Whether that's Amazon selling eBooks then revoking them years later, game companies releasing unfinished games then promising patches months later, or Tesla issuing OTA updates, it all factors down to a really similar issue in that: software has enabled companies project greed in previously impossible ways. Maybe the previous owner misrepresented the car; or maybe they didn't, because what reasonable person would have guessed that Tesla would do this? The statement "you didn't pay for those wheels" isn't even accurate; the new buyer probably did pay for them; maybe not in this case, but hypothetically: if it looks like a P90 and quacks like a P90, its a P90, and that's the resale value. If it looks like its got 19" wheels, and it quacks like its got 19" wheels, its priced like its got 19" wheels. The buyer just didn't pay the right person.

jjulius 4y ago

>Isn't it a bit akin to disclosing hidden defects for a house? If you have known about those defects, or they were properly disclosed to you when you bought the house, in many jurisdictions you're responsible to disclose them to the next buyer, are you not? "If" is the operative word there. The first tweet says that this is the "~3rd owner of a 2013 Model S 60. At some point years ago the battery pack was swapped under warranty with a 90 pack." If the change occurred with the first owner, it's possible that the second owner didn't realize the magnitude of what they were told, or weren't even told at all, before they sold it to the next person. It's also entirely possible that whoever had the battery replaced just had absolutely no idea what had been done to it.

jabbany 4y ago

Yep! If the buyer really wanted to go for someone, and assuming Tesla didn't cave re-enable the upgrade, their best bet is to go after the previous seller for misrepresentation of a 60 model for a 90. This also happens for cars sold as-is but where the dealer knows of defects and does not disclose. To quote someone else, "as-is does not cover fraud". All in all, it probably wouldn't be worth the time and effort to actually do that though. And because the current buyer is two steps removed from the actual person who was around for the swap, they probably wouldn't actually get anything back for that effort since the middle person is also protected as they bought and sold in good faith.