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Upon closer analysis, all analogies will break down. I'd argue the car in the sumtotal of all the parts in it. So rather your analogy about Alienware is: You o

Upon closer analysis, all analogies will break down. I'd argue the car in the sumtotal of all the parts in it. So rather your analogy about Alienware is: You own a dell gaming pc. Under warranty repair, Dell replaces some of the parts with parts from an Alienware build. Are you allowed to put on Alienware decals on your Dell desktop and re-sell it as an Alienware?

thaumasiotes 4y ago
Well, I own a Dell gaming PC. It came with the "Alienware Command Center" installed. I suspect it may be an Alienware PC. If so, why wouldn't we call it that?
- balls187 4y ago
  > I suspect it may be an Alienware PC. If so, why wouldn't we call it that? You could call it an Alienware PC. My question: Would it be ethical for you to represent it as an Alienware PC, and sell it as an Alienware PC by purposefully attempt pass it off by changing the appearance to make it look like an Alienware PC? To add to the gray area: Say DELL XPS 1000 and Alienware 90210 are essentially the same machine, save for custom tuning, drivers, and cosmetics. Alienware gets a 25% markup. You have the XPS 1000, apply the custom tuning and drivers to get the performance of the XPS to that of it's Alienware's counterpart. Could you sell it for more than the market rate for a use XPS1000? Yes. I'd argue you have added value by custom tuning the PC. But I believe responsible to disclose that it was an XPS that had been modified. Taking this back to cars. If an when I sell my Golf R, I will disclose it has received a Stage 1 Turbo upgrade (and hopefully use that to increase the resale value--though it typically does not except to other enthusiasts).
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    > Taking this back to cars. If an when I sell my Golf R, I will disclose it has received a Stage 1 Turbo upgrade (and hopefully use that to increase the resale value--though it typically does not except to other enthusiasts). But you're only doing this because it benefits you. If the upgrade reduced your resale value, would you still disclose it? Did you disclose it to insurance companies when you had it done, since it could impact your rates? When I traded in my GTI for my Tesla I didn't mention the aftermarket headlights I had installed nor the Stage 1. I don't lose sleep over my decision, not that it would have changed the number either way.
    - balls187 4y ago
      > If the upgrade reduced your resale value, would you still disclose it? Did you disclose it to insurance companies when you had it done, since it could impact your rates? Yes and No. Yes--simply because I'd rather cover my ass from a lawsuit down the line if the new owner discovered the aftermarket tune. No, as to my knowledge the insurance company doesn't care about street legal aftermarket upgrades.
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        You are technically supposed to inform the insurance company of any and all upgrades you make, street legal or not. They are insuring the car as it came from the factory, and while most upgrades won't change things substantially, there could be increased wear and tear, for instance, depending on the tune. You may not be legally required to, but the insurance company will pretend the upgrade doesn't exist at best, and actively claim it caused the damage, depending on the upgrade. https://www.valuepenguin.com/special-auto-insurance-coverage-for-car-modifications https://www.valuepenguin.com/special-auto-insurance-coverage... https://www.askadamskutner.com/auto-accident/insurance-for-aftermarket-parts/ https://www.askadamskutner.com/auto-accident/insurance-for-a...
  - datavirtue 4y ago
    Good idea. Tesla should make the badges out of little screens.
chris_wot 4y ago
If it has Alienware parts, then: yes. Do you think that Dell should remotely access you computer and artificially nobble it?
- balls187 4y ago
  > Do you think that Dell should remotely access you computer and artificially nobble it? No. Just like I disagreed when Sony disabled Linux support in the PS3 via Firmware update (they were hit with a Class-Action for that). To my knowledge, on of the features of Tesla is that it supports upgrades via OTA software updates. As another commenter pointed it, by treating a Tesla vehicle as a software platform, it allows Tesla to engage in behavior which is quasi normal for say a smartphone, but causes cognitive dissonance when you think of it as a car. E.g. Apple mistakenly allowing an unsupported feature on an iphone SE, then removing that ability in a future IOS update vs Toyota disabling AWD support on what should have been a FWD vehicle SKU.
skyyler 4y ago
Why use analogies at all? Tesla replaced a 60 with a 90, the owner now has a 90. They list it as a 90 when selling it. The new owner gets hit with the update to turn it back into a 60. New owner is pissed at old owner, when they should be pissed at tesla.
- ianai 4y ago
  I think they could sue both, but any lawyer would go after the entity with the larger resources aka Tesla. (IANAL)
- TillE 4y ago
  It is endlessly baffling to me that people love making analogies (and arguing about analogies!) when the situation is fairly simple to explain. Like another comment suggested, this is a small error in the customer's favor, and companies who care about customer satisfaction should really just eat the minimal cost when stuff like this happens instead of getting bogged down in technicalities.
  - skyyler 4y ago
    I understand it entirely (analogy is the core of cognition, after all) but I do find it very troublesome when simple concepts are mystified into religious debates because someone or a small group of people feel the need to flex how ULTIMATELY UNDERSTANDING they are. Like, no, if you can't use simple words to explain things and you have to rely on extended metaphors to explain things, you probably don't have the holistic understanding you believe you have.
    - balls187 4y ago
      If you take your previous comment, you wrote: > New owner is pissed at old owner, when they should be pissed at tesla. The analogies are trying to explain why or why not the owner should be pissed at Tesla, which if I understand your argument is because it was Tesla who made the change.
- judge2020 4y ago
powerhour 4y ago
Ironically, most analogies that I've seen compare other things to cars. This is one of those cases where it's the other way around.
colpabar 4y ago
> Upon closer analysis, all analogies will break down so how about you just explain your position so that other people who don't know the difference between an RTX3080 and a 3080ti can also participate
- balls187 4y ago
  > so how about you just explain your position so that other people who don't know the difference between an RTX3080 and a 3080ti can also participate GP used RTX3080 and 8080Ti, my reply furthers that discussion.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  The difference is irrelevant. It could be any part replaced under warranty. The point is they both fulfill the same function (graphics card), take the same slot on the motherboard and the 3080Ti is better.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
HWR_14 4y ago
> I'd argue the car in the sumtotal of all the parts in it. It seems like you're agreeing with me and creating a less appropriate analogy at the same time.
avar 4y ago
Upon closer analysis, all analogies will break down. I don't know if this has happened, but e.g. BMW will sell you different types of maps to load into your car navigation. What you paid for is centrally licensed through authorized dealers. Let's say a technician loaded a more recent map of Europe than the one you bought by mistake. Now you your navigation computer breaks, and you have it replaced by another technician at another authorized service center. They load the map they had on record for you into the new car nav computer, which to you is the "older" version, but the "newer" one was never one you had a license for. I'm pretty sure things like this have been happening for at least a couple of decades with some manufacturers, it's just that the "features" have become more major as more things are software-driven, in this case the battery capacity.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

Well, I own a Dell gaming PC. It came with the "Alienware Command Center" installed. I suspect it may be an Alienware PC. If so, why wouldn't we call it that?

balls187 4y ago
> I suspect it may be an Alienware PC. If so, why wouldn't we call it that? You could call it an Alienware PC. My question: Would it be ethical for you to represent it as an Alienware PC, and sell it as an Alienware PC by purposefully attempt pass it off by changing the appearance to make it look like an Alienware PC? To add to the gray area: Say DELL XPS 1000 and Alienware 90210 are essentially the same machine, save for custom tuning, drivers, and cosmetics. Alienware gets a 25% markup. You have the XPS 1000, apply the custom tuning and drivers to get the performance of the XPS to that of it's Alienware's counterpart. Could you sell it for more than the market rate for a use XPS1000? Yes. I'd argue you have added value by custom tuning the PC. But I believe responsible to disclose that it was an XPS that had been modified. Taking this back to cars. If an when I sell my Golf R, I will disclose it has received a Stage 1 Turbo upgrade (and hopefully use that to increase the resale value--though it typically does not except to other enthusiasts).
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  > Taking this back to cars. If an when I sell my Golf R, I will disclose it has received a Stage 1 Turbo upgrade (and hopefully use that to increase the resale value--though it typically does not except to other enthusiasts). But you're only doing this because it benefits you. If the upgrade reduced your resale value, would you still disclose it? Did you disclose it to insurance companies when you had it done, since it could impact your rates? When I traded in my GTI for my Tesla I didn't mention the aftermarket headlights I had installed nor the Stage 1. I don't lose sleep over my decision, not that it would have changed the number either way.
  - balls187 4y ago
    > If the upgrade reduced your resale value, would you still disclose it? Did you disclose it to insurance companies when you had it done, since it could impact your rates? Yes and No. Yes--simply because I'd rather cover my ass from a lawsuit down the line if the new owner discovered the aftermarket tune. No, as to my knowledge the insurance company doesn't care about street legal aftermarket upgrades.
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      You are technically supposed to inform the insurance company of any and all upgrades you make, street legal or not. They are insuring the car as it came from the factory, and while most upgrades won't change things substantially, there could be increased wear and tear, for instance, depending on the tune. You may not be legally required to, but the insurance company will pretend the upgrade doesn't exist at best, and actively claim it caused the damage, depending on the upgrade. https://www.valuepenguin.com/special-auto-insurance-coverage-for-car-modifications https://www.valuepenguin.com/special-auto-insurance-coverage... https://www.askadamskutner.com/auto-accident/insurance-for-aftermarket-parts/ https://www.askadamskutner.com/auto-accident/insurance-for-a...
- datavirtue 4y ago
  Good idea. Tesla should make the badges out of little screens.

chris_wot 4y ago

If it has Alienware parts, then: yes. Do you think that Dell should remotely access you computer and artificially nobble it?

balls187 4y ago
> Do you think that Dell should remotely access you computer and artificially nobble it? No. Just like I disagreed when Sony disabled Linux support in the PS3 via Firmware update (they were hit with a Class-Action for that). To my knowledge, on of the features of Tesla is that it supports upgrades via OTA software updates. As another commenter pointed it, by treating a Tesla vehicle as a software platform, it allows Tesla to engage in behavior which is quasi normal for say a smartphone, but causes cognitive dissonance when you think of it as a car. E.g. Apple mistakenly allowing an unsupported feature on an iphone SE, then removing that ability in a future IOS update vs Toyota disabling AWD support on what should have been a FWD vehicle SKU.

skyyler 4y ago

Why use analogies at all? Tesla replaced a 60 with a 90, the owner now has a 90. They list it as a 90 when selling it. The new owner gets hit with the update to turn it back into a 60. New owner is pissed at old owner, when they should be pissed at tesla.

ianai 4y ago
I think they could sue both, but any lawyer would go after the entity with the larger resources aka Tesla. (IANAL)
TillE 4y ago
It is endlessly baffling to me that people love making analogies (and arguing about analogies!) when the situation is fairly simple to explain. Like another comment suggested, this is a small error in the customer's favor, and companies who care about customer satisfaction should really just eat the minimal cost when stuff like this happens instead of getting bogged down in technicalities.
- skyyler 4y ago
  I understand it entirely (analogy is the core of cognition, after all) but I do find it very troublesome when simple concepts are mystified into religious debates because someone or a small group of people feel the need to flex how ULTIMATELY UNDERSTANDING they are. Like, no, if you can't use simple words to explain things and you have to rely on extended metaphors to explain things, you probably don't have the holistic understanding you believe you have.
  - balls187 4y ago
    If you take your previous comment, you wrote: > New owner is pissed at old owner, when they should be pissed at tesla. The analogies are trying to explain why or why not the owner should be pissed at Tesla, which if I understand your argument is because it was Tesla who made the change.
judge2020 4y ago

powerhour 4y ago

Ironically, most analogies that I've seen compare other things to cars. This is one of those cases where it's the other way around.

colpabar 4y ago

> Upon closer analysis, all analogies will break down so how about you just explain your position so that other people who don't know the difference between an RTX3080 and a 3080ti can also participate

balls187 4y ago
> so how about you just explain your position so that other people who don't know the difference between an RTX3080 and a 3080ti can also participate GP used RTX3080 and 8080Ti, my reply furthers that discussion.
HWR_14 4y ago
The difference is irrelevant. It could be any part replaced under warranty. The point is they both fulfill the same function (graphics card), take the same slot on the motherboard and the 3080Ti is better.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

HWR_14 4y ago

> I'd argue the car in the sumtotal of all the parts in it. It seems like you're agreeing with me and creating a less appropriate analogy at the same time.

avar 4y ago

Upon closer analysis, all analogies will break down. I don't know if this has happened, but e.g. BMW will sell you different types of maps to load into your car navigation. What you paid for is centrally licensed through authorized dealers. Let's say a technician loaded a more recent map of Europe than the one you bought by mistake. Now you your navigation computer breaks, and you have it replaced by another technician at another authorized service center. They load the map they had on record for you into the new car nav computer, which to you is the "older" version, but the "newer" one was never one you had a license for. I'm pretty sure things like this have been happening for at least a couple of decades with some manufacturers, it's just that the "features" have become more major as more things are software-driven, in this case the battery capacity.