5 ms·

can confirm all this, and more. It wasn't until the late 2000s when programming became easy enough for the mainstream and you started to see "coding camps," up

by asah 4y ago

can confirm all this, and more. It wasn't until the late 2000s when programming became easy enough for the mainstream and you started to see "coding camps," upwork and the like. In the mid-90s, you had crazy demand for development but needed to be a brain surgeon to get hello world to work, let alone a website to be remotely reliable. There was no automated testing, let alone CI. Source control was sometimes used, sometimes not. There were LANs but there was no "web" let alone SaaS apps - there were maybe 1,000 websites and Yahoo! listed them all in a list. It was like Product Hunt, but even smaller. You almost have to wonder how anyone learned to code? and you'd be right for asking: it mostly happened in top-20 colleges and a handful of companies. I remember showing PhDs about PKZIP and having them not believe it was possible to compress data without losing information - I had to literally show them the (rough) algorithm. Truly, it was a time of magick. (I don't miss it: the pay sucked, people treated "programmers" like crap, it was often impossible to reproduce issues, and of course you could only work in an office with dedicated hardware. Compared with today, it felt like the stone age of software development.)

dopeboy 4y ago
If the demand was high, why was the pay so low?
- jonny_eh 4y ago
  The work wasn't critical… yet. It was mostly exploratory, a way to soak up an R&D budget, or get R&D tax credits. It was harder to find the opportunities and therefore leverage multiple job offers.
  - corrral 4y ago
    Jobs were a lot more local, too. People didn't move around as much. In general, not just in software. You also couldn't just spend a couple minutes and get a ballpark for what employers were paying in another city, let alone get a decent sense of what a bunch of markets looked like—it'd take some real effort. Reduced mobility and information being much harder to come by kept salaries lower, I expect.
- biztos 4y ago
  Was it? In 1995 I was shocked to discover what the “computer guys” were getting paid, and decided I ought to be writing code (etc) as my official job instead of just the thing I do within my other job.
  - asah 4y ago
    Compared with other types of labor, yes. Compared with management, no.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> I remember showing PhDs about PKZIP and having them not believe it was possible to compress data without losing information - I had to literally show them the (rough) algorithm. They were right; that is a well-known and trivial-to-prove theorem about lossless compression. Lossless compression works because you only apply it to very particular types of data. It doesn't and cannot work on general data; that's why we have specialized compression algorithms for every different kind of data.
- mistrial9 4y ago
  I took graduate compression in the mid-90s.. JPEG was already invented and we studied that.. there was some handwaving but it was not as primitive as some comments make it out to be today
  - rsanek 4y ago
    JPEG is lossy
    - mistrial9 4y ago
      of course -- JPEG includes means to adapt to the image data patterns, however, which is mentioned in these threads as architecturally important to useful lossless compression, too. (did you really think that 'JPEG is lossy' is more than a 'gotcha' reply?)
- asah 4y ago
  They were not concerned about the compression ratio - they were concerned about data integrity/loss !
simonh 4y ago
I did a CS degree in the UK in the late 80s. The introductory language was Pascal running on a Prime Mini Computer. ANSI C had just come out, but none of us had computers. You had to book time in a lab. The Aztec C compiler we used was on a floppy disc and horrendously buggy. All the coding we did was minimal exercises. I didn’t even hear of object oriented programming until the 90s, and actually learned how to write useful programmes in Perl and C on the Sun machines at my first job. I learned Unix from scratch from the man pages. It was a different era.
zwaps 4y ago
I wrote stuff in the mid 90s and I am pretty dumb Today you need 11 frameworks to even write a hello world

by asah 4y ago

dopeboy 4y ago

If the demand was high, why was the pay so low?

jonny_eh 4y ago
The work wasn't critical… yet. It was mostly exploratory, a way to soak up an R&D budget, or get R&D tax credits. It was harder to find the opportunities and therefore leverage multiple job offers.
- corrral 4y ago
  Jobs were a lot more local, too. People didn't move around as much. In general, not just in software. You also couldn't just spend a couple minutes and get a ballpark for what employers were paying in another city, let alone get a decent sense of what a bunch of markets looked like—it'd take some real effort. Reduced mobility and information being much harder to come by kept salaries lower, I expect.
biztos 4y ago
Was it? In 1995 I was shocked to discover what the “computer guys” were getting paid, and decided I ought to be writing code (etc) as my official job instead of just the thing I do within my other job.
- asah 4y ago
  Compared with other types of labor, yes. Compared with management, no.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> I remember showing PhDs about PKZIP and having them not believe it was possible to compress data without losing information - I had to literally show them the (rough) algorithm. They were right; that is a well-known and trivial-to-prove theorem about lossless compression. Lossless compression works because you only apply it to very particular types of data. It doesn't and cannot work on general data; that's why we have specialized compression algorithms for every different kind of data.

mistrial9 4y ago
I took graduate compression in the mid-90s.. JPEG was already invented and we studied that.. there was some handwaving but it was not as primitive as some comments make it out to be today
- rsanek 4y ago
  JPEG is lossy
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    of course -- JPEG includes means to adapt to the image data patterns, however, which is mentioned in these threads as architecturally important to useful lossless compression, too. (did you really think that 'JPEG is lossy' is more than a 'gotcha' reply?)
asah 4y ago
They were not concerned about the compression ratio - they were concerned about data integrity/loss !

simonh 4y ago

I did a CS degree in the UK in the late 80s. The introductory language was Pascal running on a Prime Mini Computer. ANSI C had just come out, but none of us had computers. You had to book time in a lab. The Aztec C compiler we used was on a floppy disc and horrendously buggy. All the coding we did was minimal exercises. I didn’t even hear of object oriented programming until the 90s, and actually learned how to write useful programmes in Perl and C on the Sun machines at my first job. I learned Unix from scratch from the man pages. It was a different era.

zwaps 4y ago

I wrote stuff in the mid 90s and I am pretty dumb Today you need 11 frameworks to even write a hello world