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>This is not the greatest atrocity of our generation. There have been at least three invasions and occupations that are significantly worse crimes: the US invas

>This is not the greatest atrocity of our generation. There have been at least three invasions and occupations that are significantly worse crimes: the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan That depends on what numbers you're going to believe about civilian fatalities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen etc. It is often claimed that the Iraq War killed anywhere from 0.5 million to over 1.0 million Iraqis. However these big numbers don't make much sense considering that large scale aerial bombings and artillery strikes stopped after a month into the war and large-scale ground operations stopped after the second battle of Fallujah in 2004. The Iraqis then suffered a horrific decade of weekly and monthly sectarian terror attacks. However adding all the civilian fatalities from the US invasion and the decade of sectarian violence still doesn't add up to ~100,000 and not anywhere near the "millions" range. Don't get me wrong. The people who started the Iraq War are war criminals. However it doesn't make sense to compare the most widely exaggerated estimates from the 10+ year Iraq War with the current UN confirmed counting of civilian fatalities in the 5 month war in Ukraine. If we go by confirmed civilian fatalities Russia is currently killing Ukrainian civilians at a faster pace than anytime during the Iraq War.

kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
The study of Iraqi deaths is ongoing and I suspect that the confirmed civilian casualties from direct violence is an undercount, but regardless we should also be counting excess deaths caused by the deterioration of the country's infrastructure. That's a direct result of the war. It does mean we have no good way of counting the dead in Ukraine yet and won't for years. That said, the Ukrainian state has survived and is continuing to provide civilian services. Ukraine still produces plenty of electricity (it is even exporting it), and still is able to provide food, healthcare, water, and other essentials. There are tight supplies for some things, like gasoline and some medicines, which is awful. Contrast that to the devastation after the American invasion of Iraq, the starvation in Yemen, or the chaos in Afghanistan. Iraq still has spotty electricity and deals with violent incursions, and the war has spilled into Syria. Yemeni deaths have been horrific, but equally bad has been the widespread hunger and extreme poverty the war has thrust millions into. I just don't see that kind of suffering in Ukraine. At least not yet. If the war continues at this level of intensity and Ukraine collapses entirely, which I find unlikely (indeed, the level of intensity and casualties is already down significantly from its peak in March) I'll reassess.
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  - kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
    The displacement of Ukrainian children is awful, but also occurred in all these other conflicts. The flow of refugees is also awful, as is the imposition of the conqueror's ideology, but that happened in Iraq too. All the other effects are speculative and caused as much by US/EU sanctions (which have historically never accomplished their goals and have not had their intended effect even in this conflict) as they are by the invasion. I'm not saying the war in Ukraine isn't a horrendous war crime. It absolutely is. But it just hasn't reached the scale of the other conflicts I mentioned, and I suspect that the fact that white Europeans are suffering instead of Arabs or central Asians is the root of this overemphasis.
    - ROTMetro 4y ago
      - kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
        ROTMetro 4y ago

kieselguhr_kid 4y ago

The study of Iraqi deaths is ongoing and I suspect that the confirmed civilian casualties from direct violence is an undercount, but regardless we should also be counting excess deaths caused by the deterioration of the country's infrastructure. That's a direct result of the war. It does mean we have no good way of counting the dead in Ukraine yet and won't for years. That said, the Ukrainian state has survived and is continuing to provide civilian services. Ukraine still produces plenty of electricity (it is even exporting it), and still is able to provide food, healthcare, water, and other essentials. There are tight supplies for some things, like gasoline and some medicines, which is awful. Contrast that to the devastation after the American invasion of Iraq, the starvation in Yemen, or the chaos in Afghanistan. Iraq still has spotty electricity and deals with violent incursions, and the war has spilled into Syria. Yemeni deaths have been horrific, but equally bad has been the widespread hunger and extreme poverty the war has thrust millions into. I just don't see that kind of suffering in Ukraine. At least not yet. If the war continues at this level of intensity and Ukraine collapses entirely, which I find unlikely (indeed, the level of intensity and casualties is already down significantly from its peak in March) I'll reassess.

ROTMetro 4y ago
- kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
  The displacement of Ukrainian children is awful, but also occurred in all these other conflicts. The flow of refugees is also awful, as is the imposition of the conqueror's ideology, but that happened in Iraq too. All the other effects are speculative and caused as much by US/EU sanctions (which have historically never accomplished their goals and have not had their intended effect even in this conflict) as they are by the invasion. I'm not saying the war in Ukraine isn't a horrendous war crime. It absolutely is. But it just hasn't reached the scale of the other conflicts I mentioned, and I suspect that the fact that white Europeans are suffering instead of Arabs or central Asians is the root of this overemphasis.
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    - kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
      - ROTMetro 4y ago