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I'm baffled how this seems only to apply to the Ukraine this one time. Any meaningful discussion is labeled "whataboutism" and dismissed. You will surely agree

by lbrito 4y ago

I'm baffled how this seems only to apply to the Ukraine this one time. Any meaningful discussion is labeled "whataboutism" and dismissed. You will surely agree with me that Russia is not the world's pioneer in wars of aggression. What about (oh no, whataboutism! We can safely dismiss the argument without thinking now) all the other countries that did, and do the same? Should we also dismiss their cultural output? I'm not trying to diminish the seriousness of Russia's aggression, or how much Ukrainians are suffering. That is not the point. I want to know why you think we should dismiss Dostoevsky but not Shakespeare (to be clear, Shakespeare is just an example. I am not talking specifically about the UK). Basically every great artist and intellectual was part of a war-waging genocidal empire, and many of them pro-regime in varying degrees (Dostoevsky being a good example of the "varying"). Appreciating these people doesn't mean supporting the empires.

cudgy 4y ago
Well said. The blinders that ignore the equally abhorrent wars and policy of NATO and the US placed upon much of the discourse regarding the Ukraine situation are glaringly obvious yet somehow ignored.
- jevgeni 4y ago
  NATO and US don’t invade because your schools don’t teach Ezra Pound.
bitcurious 4y ago
> That is not the point. I want to know why you think we should dismiss Dostoevsky but not Shakespeare. Basically every great artist and intellectual was part of a war-waging genocidal empire, and many of them pro-regime in varying degrees (Dostoevsky being a good example of the "varying"). I’m not on the “boycott dead Russians” train but the difference is timeliness. Russia is today engaged in a colonial war of aggression. England was last involved in such a thing in the last century.
- cpursley 4y ago
  Oh really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War
  - bitcurious 4y ago
    >The conflict began on 2 April, when Argentina invaded and occupied the Falkland Islands, followed by the invasion of South Georgia the next day. I stand...correct?
    - cpursley 4y ago
      fwiw - I counted the last century starting from today and backwards
- the_af 4y ago
  Is Russia-Ukraine the only military conflict going on in the world?
mola 4y ago
This is not a meaningful discussion. There's an agression going on right now perpetrated by Russia. Talking about UK agression is just not relevant. It's an odd distraction.
- lbrito 4y ago
  Don't be disingenuous. I'm not talking specifically about the UK. I made that clear in the original post, but just to avoid further tangentials like this I made an edit so it is triple clear now. It is so tiring when people nitpick one specific word to "refute" you so that the rest of what you said is automatically invalidated.
- the_af 4y ago
  There are other conflicts going on in the world besides the Russian-Ukrainian war. We do not usually avoid/cancel authors from any of the nations or cultures involved. Well, I suppose writings by ISIS authors are not in any bestsellers list...
NoboruWataya 4y ago
FYI, it's not "the Ukraine", it's "Ukraine".
cpursley 4y ago
It really comes down to race, but most will never openly admit it. Let's face it, the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a white people war. The 11 million muslims killed (and many more displaced) by the collective west (NATO) since 1990 don't count, because they're brown. But when a non-western majority white country wages war, as George Carlin famously said "That's Our F*ck!ng Job": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qyG6cmTHco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qyG6cmTHco
- lbrito 4y ago
  Exactly. This is the absolute core of the issue. "On France’s BFM TV, journalist Phillipe Corbé stated this about Ukraine: “We’re not talking here about Syrians fleeing the bombing of the Syrian regime backed by Putin. We’re talking about Europeans leaving in cars that look like ours to save their lives." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/civilised-european-look-like-us-racist-coverage-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/civili...
  - ROTMetro 4y ago
    So proximity and culture. I instantly place myself and my family in those cars fleeing Ukraine, I relate easier because it's familiar. My human empathy and compassion is not evil, and your attempts to weaponize it are gross and deny human nature and realities of the human experience. I also watch more movies in English in settings I am familiar with or better know the context of (Western history versus eastern). I also wear clothes I am culturally comfortable with. Am I racist for not giving all clothes equal wearing? Because I had a diversity of ethnic foods around, I am comfortable and enjoy eating them. My family from the midwest who had no exposure mostly don't relate to them. I am not less racist, nor are they more, it's just a proximity and culture thing. I am very fond of Greek and Roman history, yet have no Greek or Roman ancestry, because I am much more familiar with greek and roman history and culture than say Persian. It's not race, it's proximity and culture. Not that I wouldn't love more Parthian Empire stories.
    - lbrito 4y ago

by lbrito 4y ago

cudgy 4y ago

Well said. The blinders that ignore the equally abhorrent wars and policy of NATO and the US placed upon much of the discourse regarding the Ukraine situation are glaringly obvious yet somehow ignored.

jevgeni 4y ago
NATO and US don’t invade because your schools don’t teach Ezra Pound.

bitcurious 4y ago

> That is not the point. I want to know why you think we should dismiss Dostoevsky but not Shakespeare. Basically every great artist and intellectual was part of a war-waging genocidal empire, and many of them pro-regime in varying degrees (Dostoevsky being a good example of the "varying"). I’m not on the “boycott dead Russians” train but the difference is timeliness. Russia is today engaged in a colonial war of aggression. England was last involved in such a thing in the last century.

cpursley 4y ago
Oh really? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War
- bitcurious 4y ago
  >The conflict began on 2 April, when Argentina invaded and occupied the Falkland Islands, followed by the invasion of South Georgia the next day. I stand...correct?
  - cpursley 4y ago
    fwiw - I counted the last century starting from today and backwards
the_af 4y ago
Is Russia-Ukraine the only military conflict going on in the world?

mola 4y ago

This is not a meaningful discussion. There's an agression going on right now perpetrated by Russia. Talking about UK agression is just not relevant. It's an odd distraction.

lbrito 4y ago
Don't be disingenuous. I'm not talking specifically about the UK. I made that clear in the original post, but just to avoid further tangentials like this I made an edit so it is triple clear now. It is so tiring when people nitpick one specific word to "refute" you so that the rest of what you said is automatically invalidated.
the_af 4y ago
There are other conflicts going on in the world besides the Russian-Ukrainian war. We do not usually avoid/cancel authors from any of the nations or cultures involved. Well, I suppose writings by ISIS authors are not in any bestsellers list...

NoboruWataya 4y ago

FYI, it's not "the Ukraine", it's "Ukraine".

cpursley 4y ago

It really comes down to race, but most will never openly admit it. Let's face it, the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a white people war. The 11 million muslims killed (and many more displaced) by the collective west (NATO) since 1990 don't count, because they're brown. But when a non-western majority white country wages war, as George Carlin famously said "That's Our F*ck!ng Job": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qyG6cmTHco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qyG6cmTHco

lbrito 4y ago
Exactly. This is the absolute core of the issue. "On France’s BFM TV, journalist Phillipe Corbé stated this about Ukraine: “We’re not talking here about Syrians fleeing the bombing of the Syrian regime backed by Putin. We’re talking about Europeans leaving in cars that look like ours to save their lives." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/civilised-european-look-like-us-racist-coverage-ukraine https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/civili...
- ROTMetro 4y ago
  So proximity and culture. I instantly place myself and my family in those cars fleeing Ukraine, I relate easier because it's familiar. My human empathy and compassion is not evil, and your attempts to weaponize it are gross and deny human nature and realities of the human experience. I also watch more movies in English in settings I am familiar with or better know the context of (Western history versus eastern). I also wear clothes I am culturally comfortable with. Am I racist for not giving all clothes equal wearing? Because I had a diversity of ethnic foods around, I am comfortable and enjoy eating them. My family from the midwest who had no exposure mostly don't relate to them. I am not less racist, nor are they more, it's just a proximity and culture thing. I am very fond of Greek and Roman history, yet have no Greek or Roman ancestry, because I am much more familiar with greek and roman history and culture than say Persian. It's not race, it's proximity and culture. Not that I wouldn't love more Parthian Empire stories.
  - lbrito 4y ago