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Regarding the Amazon tracking part. There is no requirement to use the card yourself, you could just hand it down or sell it. While the majority of people migh

Regarding the Amazon tracking part. There is no requirement to use the card yourself, you could just hand it down or sell it. While the majority of people might still redeem the code themselves, you can't automatically assume that the person who bought it is the one using it.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
eh you don't need to prove much anymore that's what parallel construction and plea deals are for.
hangonhn 4y ago
If it's only one card, then you can say that. But if there is a pattern of Amazon account X buying these cards to be used for Mullvad account Y, then it's harder to deny. Is it possible to redeem Amazon gift cards without an Amazon account? I suppose another thing you can do is buy and swap cards with other people. Each card can be up to 12 months so you don't actually need to do this that many times.
- masukomi 4y ago
  there's no way to prove that the cards bought on amazon account X were used for Mullvad account Y. That would require knowing the codes on the cards that amazon sold you, which no-one would. all that can be said with certainty is: 1. that these people bought mullvad cards on amazon. 2. these mullvad accounts were paid with cards All you can say is that 2 is a subset of 1. If mullvad sells the cards literally anywhere else, then you can't even say that with certainty.
  - j16sdiz 4y ago
    mullvad are selling them elsewhere: https://mullvad.net/en/help/partnerships-and-resellers/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/partnerships-and-resellers/
  - hnarn 4y ago
    > If mullvad sells the cards literally anywhere else, then you can't even say that with certainty. Mullvad doesn’t even have to sell them anywhere else: anyone who bought one on Amazon could have re-sold it, individually or in bulk. That’s the clever part.
    - silverpepsi 4y ago
      What does that have to do with anything though, maybe I'm not following If i tried to claim in court I bought and resold, they'll expect to see the paper trail or judt dismiss my comment
      - hnarn 4y ago
        If you want to re-sell for the explicit purpose of having plausible deniability, obviously the best way to go about that would be to actually re-sell and keep your books straight (like any business is expected to). The point is that you don’t have to do this, someone else can do it for another reason (namely profit) and the increased anonymity still applies compared to the other payment options.
  - caeril 4y ago
    You're missing the point that Mullvad still has your connecting IP address. There have been countless cases demonstrating that "no-log" VPN providers definitely do log, and even if by some miracle Mullvad doesn't, they can be compelled to start doing so, as the Protonmail case demonstrates. This does nothing to reduce the paper trail. If you really really really trust Mullvad (and you shouldn't), just use Monero.
    - miked85 4y ago
      > just use Monero The on-ramp to "just use Monero" isn't that simple for over 99% of users I'm guessing. Also, if they have your IP address logged, does it even matter how you paid?
- Rastonbury 4y ago
  The pattern cannot prove anything just because I buy cards every month can't prove I use them for Mullvad. If someone gets shot on my street and I have a gun and none of my neighbors do and they cannot match the ballistics there is almost no case.
huslage 4y ago
It's irrelevant. No one knows the code on the card in the first place. You can't trace what you don't know.
- mmis1000 4y ago
  Yes. Even you get into account directly. You see the user using a code redeemed from gift card. And then? You can't associate the code with anything at all even you also hack into mullvad's server. There is no way to tell that where the code was from even for Mullvad themselves let alone others as long as there is no serial number that also displays on card without scratch open it.
koheripbal 4y ago
These sort of plausible deniability arguments only work in people's heads. Judges and prosecutors never buy these arguments. ...and even if you think you can convince a jury, it's still enough to issue a search warrant, whereby the prosecutor will find more than enough charges to force you into a plea deal. Your initial anonymity is your most important defense.
- jtbayly 4y ago
  But the benefit remains. Buy these cards from somebody (local?) who bought them from Amazon.
- hnarn 4y ago
  > These sort of plausible deniability arguments only work in people's heads. Judges and prosecutors never buy these arguments. What exactly do you base this on? First of all, Mullvad (like any serious VPN operator) do not log IP:s and one can probably safely assume they do not log who bought which gift card. They are also under no obligation to do so, as far as I’m aware. But let’s assume for the sake of argument that they did: let’s assume they log IP:s and sales of gift cards down to the social security number of the person who bought it. Now assume that I’m running a corner store where I sell among other things these gift cards, that I bought from Amazon at a small markup. Someone uses these gift cards and the tracking (that doesn’t exist) leads back to my store. I’m defending myself in court in a democratic western country where people are assumed innocent until proven otherwise. The jury (in the US) or the judge (anywhere else) is informed that I buy these cards in bulk, I sell dozens of them a week, and the IP (that Mullvad doesn’t log) is a dead end. Do you seriously believe that a judge or jury anywhere would sentence me for the crime brought forward, or that this would even hold water enough to be prosecuted in the first place? This is almost exactly analogous to selling anonymous SIM cards (where they still exist). One is used for a drug deal. Me, the shop keeper, is prosecuted in this alternate universe because I’m selling the cards. Really?
  - nickstinemates 4y ago
    Strawman arguments are weird. Especially owning the corner store piece. Nevermind the fact that you're at trial where a judge and jury is looking at this. Nevermind that the point the GP made was that if you have someone knocking on your door motivated to find something they will find something. I am assuming if you are a nefarious actor, the goal is to not have this kind of attention, ever. You do this in all of the traditional ways - insulate and delegate.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

eh you don't need to prove much anymore that's what parallel construction and plea deals are for.

hangonhn 4y ago

If it's only one card, then you can say that. But if there is a pattern of Amazon account X buying these cards to be used for Mullvad account Y, then it's harder to deny. Is it possible to redeem Amazon gift cards without an Amazon account? I suppose another thing you can do is buy and swap cards with other people. Each card can be up to 12 months so you don't actually need to do this that many times.

masukomi 4y ago
there's no way to prove that the cards bought on amazon account X were used for Mullvad account Y. That would require knowing the codes on the cards that amazon sold you, which no-one would. all that can be said with certainty is: 1. that these people bought mullvad cards on amazon. 2. these mullvad accounts were paid with cards All you can say is that 2 is a subset of 1. If mullvad sells the cards literally anywhere else, then you can't even say that with certainty.
- j16sdiz 4y ago
  mullvad are selling them elsewhere: https://mullvad.net/en/help/partnerships-and-resellers/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/partnerships-and-resellers/
- hnarn 4y ago
  > If mullvad sells the cards literally anywhere else, then you can't even say that with certainty. Mullvad doesn’t even have to sell them anywhere else: anyone who bought one on Amazon could have re-sold it, individually or in bulk. That’s the clever part.
  - silverpepsi 4y ago
    What does that have to do with anything though, maybe I'm not following If i tried to claim in court I bought and resold, they'll expect to see the paper trail or judt dismiss my comment
    - hnarn 4y ago
      If you want to re-sell for the explicit purpose of having plausible deniability, obviously the best way to go about that would be to actually re-sell and keep your books straight (like any business is expected to). The point is that you don’t have to do this, someone else can do it for another reason (namely profit) and the increased anonymity still applies compared to the other payment options.
- caeril 4y ago
  You're missing the point that Mullvad still has your connecting IP address. There have been countless cases demonstrating that "no-log" VPN providers definitely do log, and even if by some miracle Mullvad doesn't, they can be compelled to start doing so, as the Protonmail case demonstrates. This does nothing to reduce the paper trail. If you really really really trust Mullvad (and you shouldn't), just use Monero.
  - miked85 4y ago
    > just use Monero The on-ramp to "just use Monero" isn't that simple for over 99% of users I'm guessing. Also, if they have your IP address logged, does it even matter how you paid?
Rastonbury 4y ago
The pattern cannot prove anything just because I buy cards every month can't prove I use them for Mullvad. If someone gets shot on my street and I have a gun and none of my neighbors do and they cannot match the ballistics there is almost no case.

huslage 4y ago

It's irrelevant. No one knows the code on the card in the first place. You can't trace what you don't know.

mmis1000 4y ago
Yes. Even you get into account directly. You see the user using a code redeemed from gift card. And then? You can't associate the code with anything at all even you also hack into mullvad's server. There is no way to tell that where the code was from even for Mullvad themselves let alone others as long as there is no serial number that also displays on card without scratch open it.

koheripbal 4y ago

These sort of plausible deniability arguments only work in people's heads. Judges and prosecutors never buy these arguments. ...and even if you think you can convince a jury, it's still enough to issue a search warrant, whereby the prosecutor will find more than enough charges to force you into a plea deal. Your initial anonymity is your most important defense.

jtbayly 4y ago
But the benefit remains. Buy these cards from somebody (local?) who bought them from Amazon.
hnarn 4y ago
> These sort of plausible deniability arguments only work in people's heads. Judges and prosecutors never buy these arguments. What exactly do you base this on? First of all, Mullvad (like any serious VPN operator) do not log IP:s and one can probably safely assume they do not log who bought which gift card. They are also under no obligation to do so, as far as I’m aware. But let’s assume for the sake of argument that they did: let’s assume they log IP:s and sales of gift cards down to the social security number of the person who bought it. Now assume that I’m running a corner store where I sell among other things these gift cards, that I bought from Amazon at a small markup. Someone uses these gift cards and the tracking (that doesn’t exist) leads back to my store. I’m defending myself in court in a democratic western country where people are assumed innocent until proven otherwise. The jury (in the US) or the judge (anywhere else) is informed that I buy these cards in bulk, I sell dozens of them a week, and the IP (that Mullvad doesn’t log) is a dead end. Do you seriously believe that a judge or jury anywhere would sentence me for the crime brought forward, or that this would even hold water enough to be prosecuted in the first place? This is almost exactly analogous to selling anonymous SIM cards (where they still exist). One is used for a drug deal. Me, the shop keeper, is prosecuted in this alternate universe because I’m selling the cards. Really?
- nickstinemates 4y ago
  Strawman arguments are weird. Especially owning the corner store piece. Nevermind the fact that you're at trial where a judge and jury is looking at this. Nevermind that the point the GP made was that if you have someone knocking on your door motivated to find something they will find something. I am assuming if you are a nefarious actor, the goal is to not have this kind of attention, ever. You do this in all of the traditional ways - insulate and delegate.