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I don’t think it’s either of those. Unethical and immoral are better terms to describe lying for personal gain.

by smugma 4y ago

toxik 4y ago
Is it more immoral than withholding fair wages because your employees are unwilling to change jobs? It is fighting fire with fire to be sure, but it somehow seems justified in this context. A person in my life changed jobs to a worse location and then changed back. Pay rise of like 20% and a better position (senior doctor). That is just not justifiable. Same employer, same hospital, same ward.
- smugma 4y ago
  I would argue that yes, it is more immoral. The employee that you are paying is being paid under a willing buyer/willing seller standard. It's fair to argue whether it is moral to pay people less than what you think they are worth to you. That is questioning the morality of capitalism. In contrast, "fighting fire with fire" is justifying lying. Maybe the ends justify the means in specific cases, but I believe that generally people and particularly ethicists agree that lying for personal gain is generally considered immoral/unethical. Of course, there are cases where lying is considered justified and the moral thing to do e.g. saying no if a Nazi asks you if you're hiding Jews in your attic. But in that case, you're lying not so much for personal gain but to help others.
  - borroka 4y ago
    While from a purely theoretical point of view your perspective is admirable, once you enter the real world you realize that they, we, all want to sometimes hear certain words to justify certain actions, either in their own eyes or those of the company they work for. For example, your manager would like to give you a raise, but company policy or unwritten "this is how it works" rules say that a raise of more than 15% can only be given when the employee has received an offer from another company. But they don't actually want to see the offer, they just want you to say it, just as your partner wants you to say "I love you" to him or her from time to time to continue receiving the benefits you have been looking forward to maintaining or increasing.

I don’t think it’s either of those. Unethical and immoral are better terms to describe lying for personal gain.

by smugma 4y ago

I don’t think it’s either of those. Unethical and immoral are better terms to describe lying for personal gain.

Is it more immoral than withholding fair wages because your employees are unwilling to change jobs? It is fighting fire with fire to be sure, but it somehow seems justified in this context. A person in my life changed jobs to a worse location and then changed back. Pay rise of like 20% and a better position (senior doctor). That is just not justifiable. Same employer, same hospital, same ward.

smugma 4y ago
I would argue that yes, it is more immoral. The employee that you are paying is being paid under a willing buyer/willing seller standard. It's fair to argue whether it is moral to pay people less than what you think they are worth to you. That is questioning the morality of capitalism. In contrast, "fighting fire with fire" is justifying lying. Maybe the ends justify the means in specific cases, but I believe that generally people and particularly ethicists agree that lying for personal gain is generally considered immoral/unethical. Of course, there are cases where lying is considered justified and the moral thing to do e.g. saying no if a Nazi asks you if you're hiding Jews in your attic. But in that case, you're lying not so much for personal gain but to help others.
- borroka 4y ago
  While from a purely theoretical point of view your perspective is admirable, once you enter the real world you realize that they, we, all want to sometimes hear certain words to justify certain actions, either in their own eyes or those of the company they work for. For example, your manager would like to give you a raise, but company policy or unwritten "this is how it works" rules say that a raise of more than 15% can only be given when the employee has received an offer from another company. But they don't actually want to see the offer, they just want you to say it, just as your partner wants you to say "I love you" to him or her from time to time to continue receiving the benefits you have been looking forward to maintaining or increasing.