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> I suspect that this made it possible to use a place that would otherwise have been occupied by roads under a real estate - as a result, the population density

> I suspect that this made it possible to use a place that would otherwise have been occupied by roads under a real estate - as a result, the population density has increased. And precisely such a strategy is seriously considered by many cities, including Sydney. Down with cars - long live public transport. And this seems like a sound idea. It mostly shows how much space can be freed if we were to abolish cars. The dreadfulness of this city does not come from the absence of cars, as the author acknowledges himself: > High unemployment, horrific air pollution, almost no education, medical and fire services are absent, and residents do not live to retirement age. The police state made it possible to maximize the size of the city, while retaining full control over the citizens - but it minimized the quality of life and effectively destroyed free will. > Born in Magnasanti, he spends his life working and living in a small but very efficient stretch of space, and dies at the age of about 50 years. All of this has nothing to do with the absence of cars. To the contrary, combustion cars enhance air pollution and noise in a city, restricting livability.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
There's an issue in SimCity 3000 where your healthcare is overfunded, it becomes like a retirement community in florida. The % of your workforce drops compared to your population and so your city stops growing. simcity is just a fun optimization game
jjoonathan 4y ago
The dreadfulness of the city comes from economic conditions, but if you are a citizen, economic conditions come from: * How hard you can make business compete for your business (∝ range^2 * density) * How hard you can make real estate compete for your business (∝ range^2 * density) * How hard you can make business compete for your labor (∝ range^2 * density) Having options is good, density gives you options, but range gives you options squared. The absence of cars improves density, but it also decreases range by 10x and range^2 by 100x. It is far from obvious to me that density improvements outweigh this on balance. Density has undeniable efficiency benefits, but if they accrue to capital (primarily, entirely, or more-than-entirely) and you are a laborer in Magnasanti, the outcome is not good for you.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  At even moderate traffic levels car speeds fall dramatically and often below speeds offered by trains. Trains have much higher capacities and so don’t fall victim to congestion as easily. And even commuter trains have higher speeds than cars.
  - toast0 4y ago
    > Trains have much higher capacities and so don’t fall victim to congestion as easily. All it takes is one stopped train to cause a big mess on most commuter rail lines. Commuter rail does better than cars on-peak, usually, especially with limited stop service. But off-peak, cars with no stops and point to point routing and no wait for the next take much less time.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      You could say the same thing about car accidents, which are much more frequent, so I don’t know that it’s a disadvantage.
      - toast0 4y ago
        It's usually easier to route around an accident in a car than than in a train. A blocked lane can be passed on the shoulder, but trains have a hard time doing that.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        At extremely low capacity and low speeds in any sort of meaningful traffic numbers, due to the reduced number of lanes and all the rubbernecking. And plenty of accidents close highways in one direction.
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    You have to walk to the train station, wait to get on the train (plus buffer for unreliable/full trains), wait at every stop in between, and walk to your final destination. You're right about congestion, though, and rush hour probably does dominate the equation for commuters. Still, in the city you pay a lot more for real estate and get a lot less. It is very important for models to include that aspect: do the benefits of density accrue to you, or to your landlord?
onetokeoverthe 4y ago
opportune 4y ago
One of the reasons city builders don’t use realistic housing:population ratios, ie an average of 2 people in SFH and instead coding it as like 12, is that it makes the gameplay non-fun having to provision so many roads (also, performance - kinda sucks if your max city size can only support like 100,000 people). Just let that sink in
alexpotato 4y ago
The Strong Town blog has a bunch of really interesting ideas and retrospectives on how just parking lots alone have dramatically changed the landscape of many towns in America. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/6/9/but-where-will-i-park https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/6/9/but-where-will-...

calvinmorrison 4y ago

There's an issue in SimCity 3000 where your healthcare is overfunded, it becomes like a retirement community in florida. The % of your workforce drops compared to your population and so your city stops growing. simcity is just a fun optimization game

jjoonathan 4y ago

The dreadfulness of the city comes from economic conditions, but if you are a citizen, economic conditions come from: * How hard you can make business compete for your business (∝ range^2 * density) * How hard you can make real estate compete for your business (∝ range^2 * density) * How hard you can make business compete for your labor (∝ range^2 * density) Having options is good, density gives you options, but range gives you options squared. The absence of cars improves density, but it also decreases range by 10x and range^2 by 100x. It is far from obvious to me that density improvements outweigh this on balance. Density has undeniable efficiency benefits, but if they accrue to capital (primarily, entirely, or more-than-entirely) and you are a laborer in Magnasanti, the outcome is not good for you.

bobthepanda 4y ago
At even moderate traffic levels car speeds fall dramatically and often below speeds offered by trains. Trains have much higher capacities and so don’t fall victim to congestion as easily. And even commuter trains have higher speeds than cars.
- toast0 4y ago
  > Trains have much higher capacities and so don’t fall victim to congestion as easily. All it takes is one stopped train to cause a big mess on most commuter rail lines. Commuter rail does better than cars on-peak, usually, especially with limited stop service. But off-peak, cars with no stops and point to point routing and no wait for the next take much less time.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    You could say the same thing about car accidents, which are much more frequent, so I don’t know that it’s a disadvantage.
    - toast0 4y ago
      It's usually easier to route around an accident in a car than than in a train. A blocked lane can be passed on the shoulder, but trains have a hard time doing that.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        At extremely low capacity and low speeds in any sort of meaningful traffic numbers, due to the reduced number of lanes and all the rubbernecking. And plenty of accidents close highways in one direction.
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  You have to walk to the train station, wait to get on the train (plus buffer for unreliable/full trains), wait at every stop in between, and walk to your final destination. You're right about congestion, though, and rush hour probably does dominate the equation for commuters. Still, in the city you pay a lot more for real estate and get a lot less. It is very important for models to include that aspect: do the benefits of density accrue to you, or to your landlord?

onetokeoverthe 4y ago

opportune 4y ago

One of the reasons city builders don’t use realistic housing:population ratios, ie an average of 2 people in SFH and instead coding it as like 12, is that it makes the gameplay non-fun having to provision so many roads (also, performance - kinda sucks if your max city size can only support like 100,000 people). Just let that sink in

alexpotato 4y ago

The Strong Town blog has a bunch of really interesting ideas and retrospectives on how just parking lots alone have dramatically changed the landscape of many towns in America. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/6/9/but-where-will-i-park https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/6/9/but-where-will-...