4 ms·

i don’t think you’re wrong, i just think you may have lost sight of some external factors. in 1995, the market was naturally filled with folks interested in com

i don’t think you’re wrong, i just think you may have lost sight of some external factors. in 1995, the market was naturally filled with folks interested in computers more organically. now, software writing is the modern “factory floor” worker bee position. interestingly, a huge part of the field can’t accept that we aren’t especially unique or smart, just able to tell a computer how to process inputs. we take this need to feel as if we are a part of the intellectual class, based on a rose colored glasses view of a time 20 to 30 years ago when the only people that worked on software were all staff+ enigneers. then we create this perverse concept of a “real” engineer, and that engineer is just way more willing to aquiesce to _any_ thing you do, and therefore is a “team player”. telling someone to interview for two hours, having them decide that of all the offers of interviews they had yours was least interesting with the highest barrier to entry, and you deciding they were at fault isn’t going to help you deal with the modern realities of software, and how far we’ve come for our idealized version of where we came from

sarchertech 4y ago
The rest of the professional class certainly doesn’t interview the way we do. Neither do people in the trades. People in performance careers like orchestra musicians and actors are the only other professions that really come close for all but new grads.
- corrral 4y ago
  But programming is special! The same approaches to hiring used for accountants or electricians couldn't possibly work! Don't you know programming is like painting? That's why we make people regurgitate algorithms they memorized in a high-pressure situation, while pretending they didn't memorize them. It's just like painting. eyeroll
  - twawaaay 4y ago
    Yeah, people kinda forget that not every job is the same. You can pretty much easily test if you have enough knowledge to be a good accountant or if you can play the violin well. There are couple smaller issues. Having knowledge will not tell you if they are hard working a knowing how to play violin well will not tell you if they will do well with orchestra and large audience. But in general you can do a testing period and be done with it. With developers... the main issue is that it is super difficult to judge how good a developer is and that is IMO mostly because there is a huge delay between making a decision and suffering consequences of the decision and then it is frequently difficult to tell how the consequences are connected to the decisions and what were the alternatives. And a lot of it is just opinions, so even if you hire a better developer you get into territory of trying to figure out whose opinion is right (probably the higher paid one? maybe?) And so when I hire developers I am trying to look at various other things that I hope are proxies for what I really need. So maybe I will try to look whether they have good judgement in general, how they dealt with difficult situations in the past. Maybe get to know them a little bit as a person. Which you don't have to do with an accountant or violinist.
twawaaay 4y ago
> telling someone to interview for two hours, having them decide that of all the offers of interviews they had yours was least interesting with the highest barrier to entry, and you deciding they were at fault isn’t going to help you deal with the modern realities of software But that is not my goal. My goal is hire as good developers as I can retain. I don't care about people bitching and moaning that the process is too arduous. Actually, I am happy about it because I can efficiently swipe left on them. If somebody does not care enough to work for us to put in couple of hours of work then they are very likely not a good candidate anyway. And if they have to apply to a huge number of companies to get a job there is probably some problem with them. I mean... a lot of companies are happy to put a warm body in a chair. If you can't find a job as a developer in this economy then you have to take a serious look at what you are doing wrong.
- sarchertech 4y ago
  > I don't care about people bitching and moaning that the process is too arduous. Actually, I am happy about it because I can efficiently swipe left on them. And that’s how you know there isn’t really a shortage of developers. My wife works in a field with a real shortage. When she gets interviewed, they fly her out and spend 2 days showing her around, taking her out, and trying to convince her to work for them.
  - twawaaay 4y ago
    There is a shortage of actual developers. But there is no shortage of people who don't care about what they are doing or whether they can do it at all. When you are looking through piles of thousands of people, you are looking for ways to pare it down so that you are left at every step with higher concentration of the first group. Because spending same amount of effort on everybody is not a viable strategy.
    - sarchertech 4y ago
      > There is a shortage of actual developers. But there is no shortage of people who don't care about what they are doing or whether they can do it at all. In nearly 20 years of doing this I’ve have never had one of these dreaded fake developers make it through the resume screen, initial phone call, and a conversation with an engineer. And if I did, we’d just fire them as soon as it was clear they lied about their ability. I have had plenty of the other extreme, very technically proficient developers who turned out to be terrible employees for other reasons. My initial point is that if you can afford to make your screening process arduous enough that you’re turning away otherwise qualified people because they don’t want to work for you bad enough to jump through your hoops, then there’s not a shortage. If there was really a shortage, you’d do what every other industry does. Hire based on resume, and fire the fakers.

sarchertech 4y ago

The rest of the professional class certainly doesn’t interview the way we do. Neither do people in the trades. People in performance careers like orchestra musicians and actors are the only other professions that really come close for all but new grads.

corrral 4y ago
But programming is special! The same approaches to hiring used for accountants or electricians couldn't possibly work! Don't you know programming is like painting? That's why we make people regurgitate algorithms they memorized in a high-pressure situation, while pretending they didn't memorize them. It's just like painting. eyeroll
- twawaaay 4y ago
  Yeah, people kinda forget that not every job is the same. You can pretty much easily test if you have enough knowledge to be a good accountant or if you can play the violin well. There are couple smaller issues. Having knowledge will not tell you if they are hard working a knowing how to play violin well will not tell you if they will do well with orchestra and large audience. But in general you can do a testing period and be done with it. With developers... the main issue is that it is super difficult to judge how good a developer is and that is IMO mostly because there is a huge delay between making a decision and suffering consequences of the decision and then it is frequently difficult to tell how the consequences are connected to the decisions and what were the alternatives. And a lot of it is just opinions, so even if you hire a better developer you get into territory of trying to figure out whose opinion is right (probably the higher paid one? maybe?) And so when I hire developers I am trying to look at various other things that I hope are proxies for what I really need. So maybe I will try to look whether they have good judgement in general, how they dealt with difficult situations in the past. Maybe get to know them a little bit as a person. Which you don't have to do with an accountant or violinist.

twawaaay 4y ago

> telling someone to interview for two hours, having them decide that of all the offers of interviews they had yours was least interesting with the highest barrier to entry, and you deciding they were at fault isn’t going to help you deal with the modern realities of software But that is not my goal. My goal is hire as good developers as I can retain. I don't care about people bitching and moaning that the process is too arduous. Actually, I am happy about it because I can efficiently swipe left on them. If somebody does not care enough to work for us to put in couple of hours of work then they are very likely not a good candidate anyway. And if they have to apply to a huge number of companies to get a job there is probably some problem with them. I mean... a lot of companies are happy to put a warm body in a chair. If you can't find a job as a developer in this economy then you have to take a serious look at what you are doing wrong.

sarchertech 4y ago
> I don't care about people bitching and moaning that the process is too arduous. Actually, I am happy about it because I can efficiently swipe left on them. And that’s how you know there isn’t really a shortage of developers. My wife works in a field with a real shortage. When she gets interviewed, they fly her out and spend 2 days showing her around, taking her out, and trying to convince her to work for them.
- twawaaay 4y ago
  There is a shortage of actual developers. But there is no shortage of people who don't care about what they are doing or whether they can do it at all. When you are looking through piles of thousands of people, you are looking for ways to pare it down so that you are left at every step with higher concentration of the first group. Because spending same amount of effort on everybody is not a viable strategy.
  - sarchertech 4y ago
    > There is a shortage of actual developers. But there is no shortage of people who don't care about what they are doing or whether they can do it at all. In nearly 20 years of doing this I’ve have never had one of these dreaded fake developers make it through the resume screen, initial phone call, and a conversation with an engineer. And if I did, we’d just fire them as soon as it was clear they lied about their ability. I have had plenty of the other extreme, very technically proficient developers who turned out to be terrible employees for other reasons. My initial point is that if you can afford to make your screening process arduous enough that you’re turning away otherwise qualified people because they don’t want to work for you bad enough to jump through your hoops, then there’s not a shortage. If there was really a shortage, you’d do what every other industry does. Hire based on resume, and fire the fakers.