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The article confuses work ethic and intelligence and ability. I think that although there's overlap, they're quite different things. And using grades as an inte

by orib 18y ago

The article confuses work ethic and intelligence and ability. I think that although there's overlap, they're quite different things. And using grades as an intelligence indicator is horribly flawed.

13ren 18y ago
Do you know of evidence that intelligence is not affected by effort?
- DabAsteroid 18y ago
  http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=315938 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=315938
  - 13ren 18y ago
    Those references don't seem to address my question about effort having an effect on intelligence. My question isn't about the heritability of intelligence, but whether effort (that is, training) can enhance one's intelligence. Let me explain with an analogous question: Does athletic training increase athletic ability? In terms of strength, flexibility, aerobic fitness, speed, perception, assessment, reaction times, specific skills, strategy? Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? That would be contrary to everyday experience, and studies showing that a lack of stimulation (i.e. mental exercise) retards cognitive development. e.g. that the visual system does not develop without stimulus; that the speech centers do not develop unless exposed to speech within the window (closes at around 7yo). EDIT interesting: "Breast feeding makes a huge difference, about 7 IQ points." http://www.amazon.com/Factor-Science-Evolution-Behavior-Intelligence/dp/0275961036 http://www.amazon.com/Factor-Science-Evolution-Behavior-Inte...
    - DabAsteroid 18y ago
      Those references don't seem to address my question about effort having an effect on intelligence. To paraphrase Captain Malcolm Reynolds of the Firefly class ship Serenity: "Well -- they do." Try checking the subject index of The g Factor: Abecedarian Project, 342-44, 500, 522 Head Start, 337-39 Milwaukee Project, 500 . My question isn't about the heritability of intelligence Why would you think that a book called "The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability" would only be about heritability? . Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? Yes. Why do you ask? . studies [show] that a lack of stimulation ... retards cognitive development. What studies are those? Would you consider being locked 24 hours, seven days a week, in a dark attic with a deaf-mute mother, and no toys, to be adequate stimulation for a developing child? The child rescued from that situation turned out to have mentally-developed normally, including having a normal IQ. Read all about it, and other cases of rescue from severe adversity, here: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Early+Experience+and+the+Life+Path%22+attic http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Early+Experience+and+the+L... . Jensen discusses the case of Isabelle (reported by Clarke and Clarke) on page 113 of the g Factor: From birth to age six, Isabel [sic] was totally confined to a dim attic room, where she lived alone with her deaf-mute mother who was her only social contact. Except for food, shelter, and the presence of her mother, Isabel was reared in what amounted to a totally deprived environment. There were no toys, picture books, or gadgets of any kind for her to play with. When found by the auothorities, at age six, Isabel was tested and found to have a mental age of one year and seven months and an IQ of about 30, which is barely at the imbecile level. In many ways she behaved like a very young child; she had no speech and made only croaking sounds. When handed toys or other unfamiliar objects, she would immediately put them in her mouth, as infants normally do. Yet as soon as she was exposed to educational experiences, she acquired speech, vocabulary, and syntax at an astonishing rate and gained six years of tested mental age within just two years. By the age of eight, she had come up to a mental age of eight, and her level of achievement in school was on a par with her age-mates. ... She graduated from high school as an average student. What all this means ... is that the neurological basis of information processing continued developing autonomously throughout the six years of Isabel's environmental deprivation, so that as soon as she was exposed to a normal environment she was able to learn those things for which she was developmentally "ready" at an extraordinarily fast rate, far beyond the rate for typically reared children over the period of six years over which their mental age normally increases from two to eight years. But the fast rate of manifest mental development slowed down to an average rate at the point where the level of mental development caught up with the level of neurological development. Clearly, the rate of mental development during childhood ... is largely based on the maturation of neural structures.
      - 13ren 18y ago
        Thanks for your considered reply. I'll check those references, when I have access to a copy of the book. Why would you think that a book called "The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability" would only be about heritability? Because I read all the reviews on the amazon page, and that is all they talked about. Not having a copy, that's the best I could do - and that is why I said it "doesn't seem to". You're putting words in my mouth. Perhaps the greatest source of survival ability in human beings is the ability to co-operate. General capability, in the sense of "g", of course contributes not only to individual capability, but also to this ability to cooperate. It seems though, that a preoccupation with "g" itself can become an instrument of division between people (and peoples), and ironically this preoccupation therefore reduces its possessor's survival ability. . Yes. Why do you ask? Because I find that my life is better, and I make a better contribution to the people around me, when I am aware of the things that we do have influence over, instead of the things we don't. Some aspects of mental ability seem to fall into the first category. I asked you, because you seemed to know something about it. . When found by the auothorities, at age six, I said "that the speech centers do not develop unless exposed to speech within the window (closes at around 7yo )." There have been only few documented cases of severely neglected children. In those cases where child was rescued before age 7, they recover; but in those cases where the child was rescued after ago 7, they did not recover. With so few cases (thankfully), it's hard to be accurate - but the window seems to be about 7yo, from the data. This was from Psych 101, and sorry I don't have references on hand - it was almost 20 years ago - but any first year text should have it. Note that the opposite story of Isabelle ("neglected child/adult found with retarded mental abilities; never recovers") will be much less reported in the mainstream press and have a lower pagerank. Quite possibly, new data has been uncovered since then (though hopefully not), which could well invalidate the above hypothesis - but the particular case of Isabelle does not. Again, you have not taken into account what I have written - in this case "closes at around 7yo". Incidentally, Isabelle demonstrates that before stimulus was available, the mental abilities were not present - only the potential for those abilities. Without appropriate mental stimulation, our potential is not realized. . You seem pretty arrogant in your rhetorical questions, so I'm going to leave you to it at this point. Thanks for the references, and good luck to you. :-)
        18y ago
    - orib 18y ago
      Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? You can definitely increase your ability. I don't think that's necessarily the same as changing your intelligence. I think the derivative of ability may be intelligence though -- ie, the rate at which you can increase your mental ability, as opposed to the level of ability. I also think that the increase in ability is probably asymptotic, and intelligence could affect the point at which it becomes extremely difficult to increase your ability.
- orib 18y ago
  I don't know of strong evidence either way. The fact that I think the article has no bearing on reality doesn't mean that I know what the reality actually is. I'm not sure what the best estimator of intelligence is -- perhaps the amount of time taken to pick up a completely alien concept -- but I've never seen an article thats convinced me of the changeability of intelligence in one way or another.

by orib 18y ago

The article confuses work ethic and intelligence and ability. I think that although there's overlap, they're quite different things. And using grades as an intelligence indicator is horribly flawed.

13ren 18y ago

Do you know of evidence that intelligence is not affected by effort?

DabAsteroid 18y ago
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=315938 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=315938
- 13ren 18y ago
  Those references don't seem to address my question about effort having an effect on intelligence. My question isn't about the heritability of intelligence, but whether effort (that is, training) can enhance one's intelligence. Let me explain with an analogous question: Does athletic training increase athletic ability? In terms of strength, flexibility, aerobic fitness, speed, perception, assessment, reaction times, specific skills, strategy? Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? That would be contrary to everyday experience, and studies showing that a lack of stimulation (i.e. mental exercise) retards cognitive development. e.g. that the visual system does not develop without stimulus; that the speech centers do not develop unless exposed to speech within the window (closes at around 7yo). EDIT interesting: "Breast feeding makes a huge difference, about 7 IQ points." http://www.amazon.com/Factor-Science-Evolution-Behavior-Intelligence/dp/0275961036 http://www.amazon.com/Factor-Science-Evolution-Behavior-Inte...
  - DabAsteroid 18y ago
    Those references don't seem to address my question about effort having an effect on intelligence. To paraphrase Captain Malcolm Reynolds of the Firefly class ship Serenity: "Well -- they do." Try checking the subject index of The g Factor: Abecedarian Project, 342-44, 500, 522 Head Start, 337-39 Milwaukee Project, 500 . My question isn't about the heritability of intelligence Why would you think that a book called "The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability" would only be about heritability? . Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? Yes. Why do you ask? . studies [show] that a lack of stimulation ... retards cognitive development. What studies are those? Would you consider being locked 24 hours, seven days a week, in a dark attic with a deaf-mute mother, and no toys, to be adequate stimulation for a developing child? The child rescued from that situation turned out to have mentally-developed normally, including having a normal IQ. Read all about it, and other cases of rescue from severe adversity, here: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Early+Experience+and+the+Life+Path%22+attic http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Early+Experience+and+the+L... . Jensen discusses the case of Isabelle (reported by Clarke and Clarke) on page 113 of the g Factor: From birth to age six, Isabel [sic] was totally confined to a dim attic room, where she lived alone with her deaf-mute mother who was her only social contact. Except for food, shelter, and the presence of her mother, Isabel was reared in what amounted to a totally deprived environment. There were no toys, picture books, or gadgets of any kind for her to play with. When found by the auothorities, at age six, Isabel was tested and found to have a mental age of one year and seven months and an IQ of about 30, which is barely at the imbecile level. In many ways she behaved like a very young child; she had no speech and made only croaking sounds. When handed toys or other unfamiliar objects, she would immediately put them in her mouth, as infants normally do. Yet as soon as she was exposed to educational experiences, she acquired speech, vocabulary, and syntax at an astonishing rate and gained six years of tested mental age within just two years. By the age of eight, she had come up to a mental age of eight, and her level of achievement in school was on a par with her age-mates. ... She graduated from high school as an average student. What all this means ... is that the neurological basis of information processing continued developing autonomously throughout the six years of Isabel's environmental deprivation, so that as soon as she was exposed to a normal environment she was able to learn those things for which she was developmentally "ready" at an extraordinarily fast rate, far beyond the rate for typically reared children over the period of six years over which their mental age normally increases from two to eight years. But the fast rate of manifest mental development slowed down to an average rate at the point where the level of mental development caught up with the level of neurological development. Clearly, the rate of mental development during childhood ... is largely based on the maturation of neural structures.
    - 13ren 18y ago
      Thanks for your considered reply. I'll check those references, when I have access to a copy of the book. Why would you think that a book called "The g Factor: The Science of Mental Ability" would only be about heritability? Because I read all the reviews on the amazon page, and that is all they talked about. Not having a copy, that's the best I could do - and that is why I said it "doesn't seem to". You're putting words in my mouth. Perhaps the greatest source of survival ability in human beings is the ability to co-operate. General capability, in the sense of "g", of course contributes not only to individual capability, but also to this ability to cooperate. It seems though, that a preoccupation with "g" itself can become an instrument of division between people (and peoples), and ironically this preoccupation therefore reduces its possessor's survival ability. . Yes. Why do you ask? Because I find that my life is better, and I make a better contribution to the people around me, when I am aware of the things that we do have influence over, instead of the things we don't. Some aspects of mental ability seem to fall into the first category. I asked you, because you seemed to know something about it. . When found by the auothorities, at age six, I said "that the speech centers do not develop unless exposed to speech within the window (closes at around 7yo )." There have been only few documented cases of severely neglected children. In those cases where child was rescued before age 7, they recover; but in those cases where the child was rescued after ago 7, they did not recover. With so few cases (thankfully), it's hard to be accurate - but the window seems to be about 7yo, from the data. This was from Psych 101, and sorry I don't have references on hand - it was almost 20 years ago - but any first year text should have it. Note that the opposite story of Isabelle ("neglected child/adult found with retarded mental abilities; never recovers") will be much less reported in the mainstream press and have a lower pagerank. Quite possibly, new data has been uncovered since then (though hopefully not), which could well invalidate the above hypothesis - but the particular case of Isabelle does not. Again, you have not taken into account what I have written - in this case "closes at around 7yo". Incidentally, Isabelle demonstrates that before stimulus was available, the mental abilities were not present - only the potential for those abilities. Without appropriate mental stimulation, our potential is not realized. . You seem pretty arrogant in your rhetorical questions, so I'm going to leave you to it at this point. Thanks for the references, and good luck to you. :-)
      - 18y ago
  - orib 18y ago
    Do believe that mental exercise has no effect whatsoever on mental ability? You can definitely increase your ability. I don't think that's necessarily the same as changing your intelligence. I think the derivative of ability may be intelligence though -- ie, the rate at which you can increase your mental ability, as opposed to the level of ability. I also think that the increase in ability is probably asymptotic, and intelligence could affect the point at which it becomes extremely difficult to increase your ability.
orib 18y ago
I don't know of strong evidence either way. The fact that I think the article has no bearing on reality doesn't mean that I know what the reality actually is. I'm not sure what the best estimator of intelligence is -- perhaps the amount of time taken to pick up a completely alien concept -- but I've never seen an article thats convinced me of the changeability of intelligence in one way or another.