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Shamelessness, if used correctly is a superpower that I will place it in the same pedastal as concentration, curiosity and tenacity. A lot of people including m

Shamelessness, if used correctly is a superpower that I will place it in the same pedastal as concentration, curiosity and tenacity. A lot of people including me seem to lose out because a sense of shame holds us back, not renegotiating our compensation multiple times, or to job hop as often as possible or to shamlessly promote and market ourselves and I can go on and on.

galaxyLogic 4y ago
Well if I were to reply to you simply that "I am the best" (since I am) it would be shameless self-promotion. But would it really be a good strategy? Would it not diminish my credibility? There needs to be something more than just shamelessness. Blatant shamelessness does not really get us very far, I think.
- luckylion 4y ago
  > Would it not diminish my credibility? Only with some people, but it probably works on the majority. > Blatant shamelessness does not really get us very far, I think. Collectively, no. Individually, yes. It's like lying in a society that hasn't discovered lying yet and takes everything you say as truth. It will leave that society worse off, but it's practically a super power for you.
  - galaxyLogic 4y ago
    I think we should be ashamed of our shortcomings, but not ashamed of our capabilities and accomplishments. "Shamelessness" suggests that it doesn't matter which is the case.
seer 4y ago
Trouble is, shame is not a decision, its an emotion. While one definitely can adjust ones emotional responses, it requires a lot of time and effort, and cannot be rushed too much. Whenever I feel “shame” I can ignore it and perform the action anyway, but at least for me that incurs a cost - the feeling of said shame can intensify. Even if I know that it was totally justified and there’s nothing I _should_ be ashamed for - I can’t directly control my emotions. This leads to my “rationing” of shame, where I pick my battles to make sure the outcomes are mostly good - where I feel the shame feeling was not justified. Overtime that can extend the range. Alternatively I can “exert” myself - forcing me to perform a lot of shameful actions in succession, which can _easily_ lead to “burnout” where I don’t want to do any other action other than joy seeking and relaxation for a while. A cute but still relevant example: I was urged and I went to a dance congress for a dance I was just a beginner of. Now I am generally an experienced dancer, just not that dance in particular. It took me a lot of mental effort to ask partners for a dance since I know I’m much less skilled than most and I felt a bit of shame every time. Now logically this is weird, since most dancers would prefer dancing with a beginner, rather than not dancing at all (I’m doing the leading part of the dance so I’m expected to ask followers to the dance-floor). Some would actually enjoy dancing with a shy guy and showing him the ropes. Buuut I still felt shame and each time I asked someone it became harder and harder. Two days into the event I just couldn’t force myself to do it and had to bail early. A more shameless person would have stayed and danced and learned a lot, and thats rational. But we are emotional creatures and need to take that into account, when making rational decisions too. So I try to be shameless when possible, but keep some “shamelessness” in reserve for when I really need it.
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  Agree, people have much more control over their emotional responses than they believe. One may not be able to turn off emotion in particular situations or exactly when they want to, but it's possible to tone down (or up) the response to similar situations over time through practice. In time, it becomes much more voluntary than we'd think. This is the point of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Stoicism, and Mindfulness.
andix 4y ago
About compensation there is an easy trick: decide on your limits before starting to negotiate and stick to them, really stick to them. Don’t be insulted if the other party doesn’t agree, that’s your price, and it’s their decision to take it or leave it. And tell yourself you deserve the compensation you decided on. There is the risk that you fail at a negotiation, but you have to take it. If the job is not very well paid, there is probably another one just like that, you can still take as a backup.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
With the payment thing, isn't the main 'shamelessness' on the side of the business that will employ people, and not pay them what they're worth so they can cream off the excess? Only offering market prices when forced to attract new staff but already planning to not maintain that unless forced to? It reminds me of my cable company and how they advertise all these great deals that aren't available for me because I'm an existing customer, and I have no negotiaton leverage as I don't currently have two competing providers that I can play off against each other. So, shouldn't we be aiming for more shame on that side, rather than stooping to their level and celebrating shemelessness as a way to fight fire with fire? Or at least some sensible system that better rewards people for their effort, not for disloyalty to their colleagues (and I mean that in both directions, paying less than people are worth and job-hopping for more money don't seems like socially useful behaviours) and customers?

galaxyLogic 4y ago

Well if I were to reply to you simply that "I am the best" (since I am) it would be shameless self-promotion. But would it really be a good strategy? Would it not diminish my credibility? There needs to be something more than just shamelessness. Blatant shamelessness does not really get us very far, I think.

luckylion 4y ago
> Would it not diminish my credibility? Only with some people, but it probably works on the majority. > Blatant shamelessness does not really get us very far, I think. Collectively, no. Individually, yes. It's like lying in a society that hasn't discovered lying yet and takes everything you say as truth. It will leave that society worse off, but it's practically a super power for you.
- galaxyLogic 4y ago
  I think we should be ashamed of our shortcomings, but not ashamed of our capabilities and accomplishments. "Shamelessness" suggests that it doesn't matter which is the case.

seer 4y ago

Trouble is, shame is not a decision, its an emotion. While one definitely can adjust ones emotional responses, it requires a lot of time and effort, and cannot be rushed too much. Whenever I feel “shame” I can ignore it and perform the action anyway, but at least for me that incurs a cost - the feeling of said shame can intensify. Even if I know that it was totally justified and there’s nothing I _should_ be ashamed for - I can’t directly control my emotions. This leads to my “rationing” of shame, where I pick my battles to make sure the outcomes are mostly good - where I feel the shame feeling was not justified. Overtime that can extend the range. Alternatively I can “exert” myself - forcing me to perform a lot of shameful actions in succession, which can _easily_ lead to “burnout” where I don’t want to do any other action other than joy seeking and relaxation for a while. A cute but still relevant example: I was urged and I went to a dance congress for a dance I was just a beginner of. Now I am generally an experienced dancer, just not that dance in particular. It took me a lot of mental effort to ask partners for a dance since I know I’m much less skilled than most and I felt a bit of shame every time. Now logically this is weird, since most dancers would prefer dancing with a beginner, rather than not dancing at all (I’m doing the leading part of the dance so I’m expected to ask followers to the dance-floor). Some would actually enjoy dancing with a shy guy and showing him the ropes. Buuut I still felt shame and each time I asked someone it became harder and harder. Two days into the event I just couldn’t force myself to do it and had to bail early. A more shameless person would have stayed and danced and learned a lot, and thats rational. But we are emotional creatures and need to take that into account, when making rational decisions too. So I try to be shameless when possible, but keep some “shamelessness” in reserve for when I really need it.

jvanderbot 4y ago
Agree, people have much more control over their emotional responses than they believe. One may not be able to turn off emotion in particular situations or exactly when they want to, but it's possible to tone down (or up) the response to similar situations over time through practice. In time, it becomes much more voluntary than we'd think. This is the point of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Stoicism, and Mindfulness.

andix 4y ago

About compensation there is an easy trick: decide on your limits before starting to negotiate and stick to them, really stick to them. Don’t be insulted if the other party doesn’t agree, that’s your price, and it’s their decision to take it or leave it. And tell yourself you deserve the compensation you decided on. There is the risk that you fail at a negotiation, but you have to take it. If the job is not very well paid, there is probably another one just like that, you can still take as a backup.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

With the payment thing, isn't the main 'shamelessness' on the side of the business that will employ people, and not pay them what they're worth so they can cream off the excess? Only offering market prices when forced to attract new staff but already planning to not maintain that unless forced to? It reminds me of my cable company and how they advertise all these great deals that aren't available for me because I'm an existing customer, and I have no negotiaton leverage as I don't currently have two competing providers that I can play off against each other. So, shouldn't we be aiming for more shame on that side, rather than stooping to their level and celebrating shemelessness as a way to fight fire with fire? Or at least some sensible system that better rewards people for their effort, not for disloyalty to their colleagues (and I mean that in both directions, paying less than people are worth and job-hopping for more money don't seems like socially useful behaviours) and customers?