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I'm not a game programmer. Why do games like VRChat and Fortnite need to use client-side mod detection at all? If everything goes through their servers, it see

I'm not a game programmer. Why do games like VRChat and Fortnite need to use client-side mod detection at all? If everything goes through their servers, it seems like a huge waste of time. If it's peer-to-peer it makes sense. I'm trying to google it and there seems to be a lot of semi-informed lore, some people say it's centralized and some people say parts are p2p.

_mb2v 4y ago
VRChat is jam-packed with malicious users who use modded clients or run Wireshark to dox and harass people using their IP. Imagine an adult telling a little kid in VR, "I know where you live, it's in X city" and then social-engineering their way to even worse places. They did a big refactor a few years ago to remove all/most P2P networking due to the DDoS and harassment problems. The VRChat community is incredibly toxic.
- mlindner 4y ago
  What little kid is going to own multi-hundred dollar VR systems.
  - kaibee 4y ago
    A Quest 2 is $300 and so so many kids have them.
  - _mb2v 4y ago
    The same kids whose parents bought them an XBox or PlayStation. The Quest 2 is cheaper than both at $300. It’s standalone so you don’t need a PC. There’s been a sea change in the VR player base since the first Quest came out: https://youtu.be/wbB807o-Fjs https://youtu.be/wbB807o-Fjs
  - shultays 4y ago
    Same little kid that can have a computer, a tablet or a console. Or a house while at it. It is their parents that buy/own VR systems, salary of the kid does not matter.
- shultays 4y ago
  VRChat exposes user IPs? edit: another comment mentions "partial p2p" (I assume to share user models etc? maybe more) which sounds plausible
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  You can still use Wireshark even with anti-cheat.
shultays 4y ago
Fortnite definitely not p2p (my guess), can't talk about vrchat but it makes sense that parts could be p2p. Lots of users and they would want to minimize server trafic People would want client side checks for variety of reasons. It is more performant (for your server), it is more robust (imagine you are not sending player data that are behind a wall. Now that player might be visible very quickly by moving but your server response might be too late) and some stuff is almost impossible (aim bots etc. Sure your server make some guesses but a client detecting existence of such programs is still a plus)
vkou 4y ago
Here's a simple reason for why client-side cheat detection is necessary: Suppose we have a competitive game where the goal is to click on a target quickly. Most online shooters have this property. A cheat can always do this at least as fast as the best players in the world can. Without client-side cheat detection, you will not be able to detect, on the server side, whether or not the commands sent from the client are coming from a cheat, of a world champion player. Yes, client-side detection isn't perfect. But in security, perfect is unattainable.

_mb2v 4y ago

VRChat is jam-packed with malicious users who use modded clients or run Wireshark to dox and harass people using their IP. Imagine an adult telling a little kid in VR, "I know where you live, it's in X city" and then social-engineering their way to even worse places. They did a big refactor a few years ago to remove all/most P2P networking due to the DDoS and harassment problems. The VRChat community is incredibly toxic.

mlindner 4y ago
What little kid is going to own multi-hundred dollar VR systems.
- kaibee 4y ago
  A Quest 2 is $300 and so so many kids have them.
- _mb2v 4y ago
  The same kids whose parents bought them an XBox or PlayStation. The Quest 2 is cheaper than both at $300. It’s standalone so you don’t need a PC. There’s been a sea change in the VR player base since the first Quest came out: https://youtu.be/wbB807o-Fjs https://youtu.be/wbB807o-Fjs
- shultays 4y ago
  Same little kid that can have a computer, a tablet or a console. Or a house while at it. It is their parents that buy/own VR systems, salary of the kid does not matter.
shultays 4y ago
VRChat exposes user IPs? edit: another comment mentions "partial p2p" (I assume to share user models etc? maybe more) which sounds plausible
sudosysgen 4y ago
You can still use Wireshark even with anti-cheat.

shultays 4y ago

Fortnite definitely not p2p (my guess), can't talk about vrchat but it makes sense that parts could be p2p. Lots of users and they would want to minimize server trafic People would want client side checks for variety of reasons. It is more performant (for your server), it is more robust (imagine you are not sending player data that are behind a wall. Now that player might be visible very quickly by moving but your server response might be too late) and some stuff is almost impossible (aim bots etc. Sure your server make some guesses but a client detecting existence of such programs is still a plus)

vkou 4y ago

Here's a simple reason for why client-side cheat detection is necessary: Suppose we have a competitive game where the goal is to click on a target quickly. Most online shooters have this property. A cheat can always do this at least as fast as the best players in the world can. Without client-side cheat detection, you will not be able to detect, on the server side, whether or not the commands sent from the client are coming from a cheat, of a world champion player. Yes, client-side detection isn't perfect. But in security, perfect is unattainable.