12 ms·

Quite elitist requirements ya got there. Give me an engineer who understands how to transform requirements into business value over one that has a sick tmux env

Quite elitist requirements ya got there. Give me an engineer who understands how to transform requirements into business value over one that has a sick tmux environment. Refining the details of pet projects is not a luxury that not everyone has. If the quality of the candidate was correlated, then sure. Even still, candidates who get shit done have always been the perceived best hires.

drewcoo 4y ago
Some people prefer to hire elite engineers. Seriously, though, for a reasonably senior position, they'll already have been employed for long enough at a high enough salary to be afforded hobby time. And if they really enjoy coding, they'll probably code something up just to scratch some itch. Or just to play with things not work-mandated. That's not elitist. It's selecting for successful engineers who actually enjoy coding.
- fendy3002 4y ago
  Many good engineers love to code outside work as a hobby, do not make engineers that doesn't like it as automatically bad. If the interviewer cannot determine whether the candidate is good in less than 2 hours interview session without previously made projects, it's on the interviewer. On the other spectrum, companies are feeling too entitled for demanding pre-established projects to showcase, take-home assignments take can take days to do, without really offering any incentive to it.
  - BackBlast 4y ago
    I don't think it's totally unreasonable. Sure, there are plenty of good engineers who won't have a nice side project to bring up. And you will be auto-passing on them. The real question is, how many bad engineers are hacking away on a side project they can show off and speak intelligently about? He is right that his method doesn't scale. He is intentionally picking from a rather small bucket. But that bucket should be pretty high signal-to-noise. That makes his job pretty easy. When hiring, I often try to filter for "gets stuff done". Side projects definitely help check that box. I also filter for how deep their technical knowledge is for their experience level. I love finding people who are passionate about computers and code, as they always hit above their pay grade, but don't really try to filter for this.
    - fendy3002 4y ago
      Yeah, that this method works and companies feeling entitled is not mutually exclusive. However it works against job seeker instead. It already taking a good chunk of productive time doing interview sessions and this can only increase it more. Now when this technique become successful and widespreadly adapted by other companies, everyone will start making minimum personal project to show, enlarging the bucket and increasing the signal until another, more effort interview style is introduced, thus reducing the signal again and repeat. In the end it'll only take more and more time from job seeker.
- dboreham 4y ago
  Not married then.
  - BackBlast 4y ago
    I'm married. I have children ages 4, 6, 7, 9, 10. I don't really have much extra time. I have many side projects. I don't watch TV. I don't play games. In my very limited spare time, if I don't have pressing household chores/repairs/bills/errands/etc then I build software projects, work on home IT stuff, and read the occasional book. If I can do it, almost anyone who really wants to can. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Some days I just can't, I'm fried after work, and then I just hang out with the family.
    - ctvo 4y ago
      > I don't watch TV. I don't play games. In my very limited spare time, if I don't have pressing household chores I build software projects, work on home IT stuff, and read the occasional book. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Great. Two of the most common hobbies for everyone else is excluded so you have enough time to do side projects (TV here includes streaming service shows, sport broadcasts, etc.). How is this not reinforcing the idea that this purity test excludes many engineers?
      - BackBlast 4y ago
        Of course it excludes people. Some of those excluded are good people. The claim isn't made that it's some perfect process where no stone is left unturned.
        ctvo 4y ago
        No, the claim is it's a better way to hire "Good Engineers", because what's the point of a method that isn't better than the current standard of white boarding, which we know also excludes people, but has also identified "Good Engineers". This is where data would be helpful, and why numerous people have pointed out that bringing code you wrote, IP owned by your previous employer is a no go, and why we've goal post moved instead to bringing in your personal projects.

drewcoo 4y ago

Some people prefer to hire elite engineers. Seriously, though, for a reasonably senior position, they'll already have been employed for long enough at a high enough salary to be afforded hobby time. And if they really enjoy coding, they'll probably code something up just to scratch some itch. Or just to play with things not work-mandated. That's not elitist. It's selecting for successful engineers who actually enjoy coding.

fendy3002 4y ago
Many good engineers love to code outside work as a hobby, do not make engineers that doesn't like it as automatically bad. If the interviewer cannot determine whether the candidate is good in less than 2 hours interview session without previously made projects, it's on the interviewer. On the other spectrum, companies are feeling too entitled for demanding pre-established projects to showcase, take-home assignments take can take days to do, without really offering any incentive to it.
- BackBlast 4y ago
  I don't think it's totally unreasonable. Sure, there are plenty of good engineers who won't have a nice side project to bring up. And you will be auto-passing on them. The real question is, how many bad engineers are hacking away on a side project they can show off and speak intelligently about? He is right that his method doesn't scale. He is intentionally picking from a rather small bucket. But that bucket should be pretty high signal-to-noise. That makes his job pretty easy. When hiring, I often try to filter for "gets stuff done". Side projects definitely help check that box. I also filter for how deep their technical knowledge is for their experience level. I love finding people who are passionate about computers and code, as they always hit above their pay grade, but don't really try to filter for this.
  - fendy3002 4y ago
    Yeah, that this method works and companies feeling entitled is not mutually exclusive. However it works against job seeker instead. It already taking a good chunk of productive time doing interview sessions and this can only increase it more. Now when this technique become successful and widespreadly adapted by other companies, everyone will start making minimum personal project to show, enlarging the bucket and increasing the signal until another, more effort interview style is introduced, thus reducing the signal again and repeat. In the end it'll only take more and more time from job seeker.
dboreham 4y ago
Not married then.
- BackBlast 4y ago
  I'm married. I have children ages 4, 6, 7, 9, 10. I don't really have much extra time. I have many side projects. I don't watch TV. I don't play games. In my very limited spare time, if I don't have pressing household chores/repairs/bills/errands/etc then I build software projects, work on home IT stuff, and read the occasional book. If I can do it, almost anyone who really wants to can. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Some days I just can't, I'm fried after work, and then I just hang out with the family.
  - ctvo 4y ago
    > I don't watch TV. I don't play games. In my very limited spare time, if I don't have pressing household chores I build software projects, work on home IT stuff, and read the occasional book. These things aren't mutually exclusive. Great. Two of the most common hobbies for everyone else is excluded so you have enough time to do side projects (TV here includes streaming service shows, sport broadcasts, etc.). How is this not reinforcing the idea that this purity test excludes many engineers?
    - BackBlast 4y ago
      Of course it excludes people. Some of those excluded are good people. The claim isn't made that it's some perfect process where no stone is left unturned.
      - ctvo 4y ago
        No, the claim is it's a better way to hire "Good Engineers", because what's the point of a method that isn't better than the current standard of white boarding, which we know also excludes people, but has also identified "Good Engineers". This is where data would be helpful, and why numerous people have pointed out that bringing code you wrote, IP owned by your previous employer is a no go, and why we've goal post moved instead to bringing in your personal projects.