21 ms·

Princess Mononoke: The masterpiece that flummoxed the US

114 points by Digit-Al 4y ago

kleer001 4y ago
My first exposure to Anime was a duped VHS copy of Akira in 1993. Holy cheese and crackers, what an experience. My jaw was dropped the whole time and even during the credits my eyes were glued to the screen. Even as my high school friends got up, turned on the lights and puttered around getting ready to go home I couldn't move I was so transfixed.
hajile 4y ago
Princess Mononoke is what you get when you make Dances with Wolves/Pocahontas/Avatar, but with the humanist perspective that people everywhere are both good and bad.
- xwolfi 4y ago
  So like any movie except american ones ? :D In Europe and Asia, we do enjoy the US movies but it's not like we think they have quality, hell it's like macdo and coke, it s fun to consume but got is it awful :D The US has the ability to appeal to your base instinct instead of trying to reach your brain, it's striking !
  - not2b 4y ago
    There are plenty of Americans producing interesting films, but the blockbusters that get the big budgets and the promotion are just going for the biggest possible audience, so they don't take risks.
    - xwolfi 4y ago
      But the downward spiral is impressive: I feel popular movies in the past felt less like copies of each others than now. It's not just not taking risk: like coca cola they found the perfect formula and arent going to change it. And if they try, they d have insane addicts asking them to bring back the original formula. Imagine big studios saying now they'll stop marvel movies, there d be a riot. I remember when the Inception + Shutter Island miracle happened and was reading Hollywood execs were flabbergasted and trying to formalize it so they could churn copies every few months. There s nothing to do: they are private entreprises and they fit an addictive hole. Would be like trying to forbid beer because it s not as intellectual as cognac. I just feel like for some reason smaller markets do films differently because they just cant compete: Im French and live in Hong Kong, in both, local big budget blockbusters flop spectacularly because they feel too much like Ersatz (the CGI is years behind, the love story is under developed, the explosions are not well timed, the enemy is not as manichean, whatever), while smarter movies make us all proud "heh americans couldnt shit one like that, we're so special" :D
      - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        I don't know. I've watched plenty of anime and plenty of it is garbage. Ghibli is an outlier. Possibly the worst Ghibli movie was Earthsea and even that is merely average and only bad when compared to the rest of their catalogue. Other cultures have their thing too. Bollywood has dancing in everything which still doesn't make sense to me after watch a bunch of Bollywood movies. Korea has their K-Dramas. Every one is the same.
        not2b 4y ago
        For quality anime beyond Ghibli, try Satoshi Kon.
        sn41 4y ago
        Many of the cliches about other movie industries were actually imported from early Hollywood. The large eyes in most anime is what happened when the Japanese adopted the style from the early Disney movies. Early Bollywood movie style was just imported from early Hollywood musicals - musicals were much more common in the 1930s. Now all the industries have diverged over time, and they look very quirky when compared to each other. But the common source of all these styles is Hollywood itself.
        2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        I'm not familiar with who stole what from who and I generally don't care. But all these cultures have taken whatever it is and made it their own. Big eyed stuff is now synonymous with Japan. People breaking out in dance is a Bollywood trope. Some of this stuff circles back around eventually. I'm only pointing out they are also pandering to their own fan bases and it can be just as formulaic as Hollywood. No need to put things on a pedestal.
    - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
      I would say there are some exceptions, like Shape Of Water.
      - clairity 4y ago
        shape of water was good for it's ethereal scenery and underlying storyline, but for the 2018 oscars, i thought 3 billboards got robbed for best picture. that was the last year i paid any attention to the oscars (especially considering the thoroughly mundane green book won the following year). hollywood has nothing interesting to offer anymore.
neves 4y ago
Is princess Mononoke the best movie from Studio Ghibli? It's the best anime I've ever whatched .
- threatofrain 4y ago
  I would also recommend The Princess Kaguya and Only Yesterday as contenders for that title.
  - code_biologist 4y ago
    I was going to say Spirited Away with an honorable mention to Howl's Moving Castle as a crowd pleaser — but I haven't see either you mentioned. Thanks for the rec!
    - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
      My Neighbours the Yamadas and Pom Poko are also worth a watch.
      - Tostino 4y ago
        I loved Pom Poko, was such an interesting take on so many things.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
    Grave of the Fireflies
    - hinkley 4y ago
      Grave of the Fireflies needs a warning label. It's Schindler's List in a few important ways. 1) it's about WWII, 2) It's a gut punch, and 3) It's one of the greatest movies you only need to see once, and likely will only want to watch once. I've told the kids they can only watch that movie once they're old enough to drink.
madrox 4y ago
It didn't flummox the US. It flummoxed Miramax, which is what the article is saying. Miramax wanted Mononoke Hime to be a 90s Disney film, and when they couldn't cut the film into one, they gave up on it. It really highlights how badly Hollywood used to gatekeep entertainment by owning the distribution tools. You can thank Netflix for changing that. I worked in Hollywood when Netflix rolled out House of Cards, and it was nothing less than a revolution for the execs at the time. Netflix terrified them. Before then, every entrenched name in Hollywood mocked the internet as something consumers would never prefer for movies. However, Netflix created a place for big budget, niche content in a way that forced Hollywood to sit up and take notice. If Netflix hadn't happened, nothing would've changed. And thank God. I remember seeing Mononoke Hime in the theater, and it was my first introduction to anime. It was a breath of fresh air for me in terms of entertainment. I was so tired of western film at that point and it made me aware that there was so much more out there if I was willing to look for it. Nowadays, it hardly requires looking.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  I had the exact same experience with Mononoke Hime. It piqued my interest in the rest of the world as a kid. I started importing a lot of media globally after that, and made some life-long friends at various record and comic book stores around the world, who to this day still help me get my grubby little mitts on physical-only releases. People may also forget that Netflix and similar offered DVD rentals and purchases via mail prior to streaming. That's not to be underestimated in how important it was to a significant demographic, being able to access culture they otherwise would not have been able to due to cost or scarcity. It's a good time for cultural accessibility.
- tjr225 4y ago
  Princess Mononoke is one of my favorite movies of all time but Netflix is more or less straight up garbage. Even their flagship offerings like Stranger Things are creatively bankrupt references for bored millennial parents.
  - me_me_me 4y ago
    Netflix has many good interesting shows, however they have a habit of cancelling them.
nvahalik 4y ago
The thing that gets me about Spirited Away (and most Ghibli films) is the sense of being transported. The characters at the end are no longer in a place where they can go back to “the way things were” but somehow it’s okay. So there is this pain but in the end it’s ultimately cathartic and you feel joy and hope.
- clairity 4y ago
  yes, spirited away is hands down the best ghibli film, for that ability to grab your spirit and transform it alongside chihiro's (the young protagonist). it's probably one of my top 5 or top 10 films of all time. i liked mononoke, but it felt heavy-handed in comparison, so it doesn't rate as highly in my book. it would have rated way worse had disney gotten its way with it. edit: totoro would be #2, kaguya and grave of the fireflies would be tied for #3/4, then howl's moving castle at #5, then ponyo, mononoke, and kiki's delivery service would be among the remaining top 10 spots for me.
  - Eric_WVGG 4y ago
    > spirited away is hands down the best ghibli film next to Mononoke and Nausicaä, sure
    - nvahalik 4y ago
      I actually meant to say Mononoke, but Spirited Away is one I have watched with my kids—and I'm about to introduce Mononoke to my oldest.
  - grogenaut 4y ago
    I'd put grave #1, but I'd also only watch it again if I really wanted to make someone cry by showing it to them the first time. Brutal and poignant.
    - clairity 4y ago
      to be clear, even though i ranked them, my bar for a good film is whether i'd watch it again or not, and all the ghibli films i've seen, except perhaps arrietty (i haven't seen earwig or earthsea, but the consensus seems to be against those as well), are well worth watching again and again. grave of the fireflies is heartwrenching for sure, and absolutely worth watching again (when you have tissues and a loved one to hug nearby).
donatj 4y ago
I watched it as a teen at a friend's house around year 2000. Might have been an early bootleg, he was really into bootlegged Japanese VHS tapes. I found the story and tone really disturbing. I remembered it this way, and wasn't really interested in seeing it again. Didn't watch it again until maybe a year ago when my wife wanted to watch it. She's gotten really into Studio Ghibli and we've been working our way through the catalog. Even so, I was actually still hesitant to watch it. I found it much different than I remembered. Layered story with actual shades of gray that Hollywood isn't capable of producing. Only movie I can think of where there are multiple factions and none of them are clearly good or bad. Compelling narrative all around. It's genuinely a masterwork only outdone by Spirited Away. Point of my story is, I wasn't ready for it, I don't know if America was.
- 8bitsrule 4y ago
  Looks as though Spirited Away (one of my favorite animations) also flummoxed the world. Here it (initially) earned $10M, (Japan at $234M, China $69M, France $6M) [https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0245429/ https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0245429/] Not too surprising for the US, which pretty much ignored electronic music, both domestic (except for NIN) and foreign (except for 'Autobahn'), until Prodigy arrived in 1996 with "Fat of the Land" (US#1??!!) and landed one more with 'Smack My Bitch Up'.
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    You must have a very narrow concept of "electronic music?" Otherwise, the second British invasion, hip hop, house, and freestyle, all huge in the 80s would like a word with you. Even things traditionally not electronic like R&B and Hard Rock were significantly influenced by drum machines and synthesizers in the 80s. TR-808? Keytars?
- woojoo666 4y ago
  > I found it much different than I remembered. Layered story with actual shades of gray that Hollywood isn't capable of producing. Only movie I can think of where there are multiple factions and none of them are clearly good or bad Actually I feel like western movies and tv tends to be more morally ambiguous than anime. In terms of multiple factions where none are clearly good/bad, Game of Thrones comes to mind
hamhamed 4y ago
My personal recomendation for HN users to get into Ghibli is to start with The Wind Rises. It's more recent (2014), and loosely based on a true story/biography. No crazy monsters or spirits. It also emcompasses creativty, engineering and hard work as the main characeter design a fighter plane. Truly a masterpiece that resonated with me Of course the other ones mentioned in this topic are good too.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  As a counterpoint, I thought that was maybe my least favorite movie directed by Miyazaki! Even a bad Miyazaki movie is pretty good, but for me it didn't have what makes his other movies special. I'd recommend it only if a person absolutely can't, say, tolerate elements of the fantastical in their entertainment. The lead character is an engineer who makes planes, but the movie (understandably) doesn't really go into that part. Mononoke is probably tied with Wind Rises for "most serious Miyazaki movie." which might make it a perfect starting point for some in the HN crowd. Spirited Away is probably the closest to a universal crowd-pleaser?
- elevaet 4y ago
  The animation is _incredible_ in The Wind Rises.
YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
>> Graphic and bloody violence is a key element of Princess Mononoke, making it far from children's fare (Credit: Alamy) No, no, no. That is exactly what children want to watch. It's their parents who don't want them to watch it. Kides themselves are all over this stuff and the moment they're old enough to get their hands on it, they binge on it. Speaking as someone who once was a child (with a splatter-gore phase no less).

114 points by Digit-Al 4y ago

My first exposure to Anime was a duped VHS copy of Akira in 1993. Holy cheese and crackers, what an experience. My jaw was dropped the whole time and even during the credits my eyes were glued to the screen. Even as my high school friends got up, turned on the lights and puttered around getting ready to go home I couldn't move I was so transfixed.

hajile 4y ago

Princess Mononoke is what you get when you make Dances with Wolves/Pocahontas/Avatar, but with the humanist perspective that people everywhere are both good and bad.

xwolfi 4y ago
So like any movie except american ones ? :D In Europe and Asia, we do enjoy the US movies but it's not like we think they have quality, hell it's like macdo and coke, it s fun to consume but got is it awful :D The US has the ability to appeal to your base instinct instead of trying to reach your brain, it's striking !
- not2b 4y ago
  There are plenty of Americans producing interesting films, but the blockbusters that get the big budgets and the promotion are just going for the biggest possible audience, so they don't take risks.
  - xwolfi 4y ago
    But the downward spiral is impressive: I feel popular movies in the past felt less like copies of each others than now. It's not just not taking risk: like coca cola they found the perfect formula and arent going to change it. And if they try, they d have insane addicts asking them to bring back the original formula. Imagine big studios saying now they'll stop marvel movies, there d be a riot. I remember when the Inception + Shutter Island miracle happened and was reading Hollywood execs were flabbergasted and trying to formalize it so they could churn copies every few months. There s nothing to do: they are private entreprises and they fit an addictive hole. Would be like trying to forbid beer because it s not as intellectual as cognac. I just feel like for some reason smaller markets do films differently because they just cant compete: Im French and live in Hong Kong, in both, local big budget blockbusters flop spectacularly because they feel too much like Ersatz (the CGI is years behind, the love story is under developed, the explosions are not well timed, the enemy is not as manichean, whatever), while smarter movies make us all proud "heh americans couldnt shit one like that, we're so special" :D
    - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
      I don't know. I've watched plenty of anime and plenty of it is garbage. Ghibli is an outlier. Possibly the worst Ghibli movie was Earthsea and even that is merely average and only bad when compared to the rest of their catalogue. Other cultures have their thing too. Bollywood has dancing in everything which still doesn't make sense to me after watch a bunch of Bollywood movies. Korea has their K-Dramas. Every one is the same.
      - not2b 4y ago
        For quality anime beyond Ghibli, try Satoshi Kon.
      - sn41 4y ago
        Many of the cliches about other movie industries were actually imported from early Hollywood. The large eyes in most anime is what happened when the Japanese adopted the style from the early Disney movies. Early Bollywood movie style was just imported from early Hollywood musicals - musicals were much more common in the 1930s. Now all the industries have diverged over time, and they look very quirky when compared to each other. But the common source of all these styles is Hollywood itself.
        2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
        I'm not familiar with who stole what from who and I generally don't care. But all these cultures have taken whatever it is and made it their own. Big eyed stuff is now synonymous with Japan. People breaking out in dance is a Bollywood trope. Some of this stuff circles back around eventually. I'm only pointing out they are also pandering to their own fan bases and it can be just as formulaic as Hollywood. No need to put things on a pedestal.
  - PuppyTailWags 4y ago
    I would say there are some exceptions, like Shape Of Water.
    - clairity 4y ago
      shape of water was good for it's ethereal scenery and underlying storyline, but for the 2018 oscars, i thought 3 billboards got robbed for best picture. that was the last year i paid any attention to the oscars (especially considering the thoroughly mundane green book won the following year). hollywood has nothing interesting to offer anymore.

neves 4y ago

Is princess Mononoke the best movie from Studio Ghibli? It's the best anime I've ever whatched .

threatofrain 4y ago
I would also recommend The Princess Kaguya and Only Yesterday as contenders for that title.
- code_biologist 4y ago
  I was going to say Spirited Away with an honorable mention to Howl's Moving Castle as a crowd pleaser — but I haven't see either you mentioned. Thanks for the rec!
  - 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
    My Neighbours the Yamadas and Pom Poko are also worth a watch.
    - Tostino 4y ago
      I loved Pom Poko, was such an interesting take on so many things.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  Grave of the Fireflies
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Grave of the Fireflies needs a warning label. It's Schindler's List in a few important ways. 1) it's about WWII, 2) It's a gut punch, and 3) It's one of the greatest movies you only need to see once, and likely will only want to watch once. I've told the kids they can only watch that movie once they're old enough to drink.

madrox 4y ago

It didn't flummox the US. It flummoxed Miramax, which is what the article is saying. Miramax wanted Mononoke Hime to be a 90s Disney film, and when they couldn't cut the film into one, they gave up on it. It really highlights how badly Hollywood used to gatekeep entertainment by owning the distribution tools. You can thank Netflix for changing that. I worked in Hollywood when Netflix rolled out House of Cards, and it was nothing less than a revolution for the execs at the time. Netflix terrified them. Before then, every entrenched name in Hollywood mocked the internet as something consumers would never prefer for movies. However, Netflix created a place for big budget, niche content in a way that forced Hollywood to sit up and take notice. If Netflix hadn't happened, nothing would've changed. And thank God. I remember seeing Mononoke Hime in the theater, and it was my first introduction to anime. It was a breath of fresh air for me in terms of entertainment. I was so tired of western film at that point and it made me aware that there was so much more out there if I was willing to look for it. Nowadays, it hardly requires looking.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
I had the exact same experience with Mononoke Hime. It piqued my interest in the rest of the world as a kid. I started importing a lot of media globally after that, and made some life-long friends at various record and comic book stores around the world, who to this day still help me get my grubby little mitts on physical-only releases. People may also forget that Netflix and similar offered DVD rentals and purchases via mail prior to streaming. That's not to be underestimated in how important it was to a significant demographic, being able to access culture they otherwise would not have been able to due to cost or scarcity. It's a good time for cultural accessibility.
tjr225 4y ago
Princess Mononoke is one of my favorite movies of all time but Netflix is more or less straight up garbage. Even their flagship offerings like Stranger Things are creatively bankrupt references for bored millennial parents.
- me_me_me 4y ago
  Netflix has many good interesting shows, however they have a habit of cancelling them.

nvahalik 4y ago

The thing that gets me about Spirited Away (and most Ghibli films) is the sense of being transported. The characters at the end are no longer in a place where they can go back to “the way things were” but somehow it’s okay. So there is this pain but in the end it’s ultimately cathartic and you feel joy and hope.

clairity 4y ago
yes, spirited away is hands down the best ghibli film, for that ability to grab your spirit and transform it alongside chihiro's (the young protagonist). it's probably one of my top 5 or top 10 films of all time. i liked mononoke, but it felt heavy-handed in comparison, so it doesn't rate as highly in my book. it would have rated way worse had disney gotten its way with it. edit: totoro would be #2, kaguya and grave of the fireflies would be tied for #3/4, then howl's moving castle at #5, then ponyo, mononoke, and kiki's delivery service would be among the remaining top 10 spots for me.
- Eric_WVGG 4y ago
  > spirited away is hands down the best ghibli film next to Mononoke and Nausicaä, sure
  - nvahalik 4y ago
    I actually meant to say Mononoke, but Spirited Away is one I have watched with my kids—and I'm about to introduce Mononoke to my oldest.
- grogenaut 4y ago
  I'd put grave #1, but I'd also only watch it again if I really wanted to make someone cry by showing it to them the first time. Brutal and poignant.
  - clairity 4y ago
    to be clear, even though i ranked them, my bar for a good film is whether i'd watch it again or not, and all the ghibli films i've seen, except perhaps arrietty (i haven't seen earwig or earthsea, but the consensus seems to be against those as well), are well worth watching again and again. grave of the fireflies is heartwrenching for sure, and absolutely worth watching again (when you have tissues and a loved one to hug nearby).

donatj 4y ago

I watched it as a teen at a friend's house around year 2000. Might have been an early bootleg, he was really into bootlegged Japanese VHS tapes. I found the story and tone really disturbing. I remembered it this way, and wasn't really interested in seeing it again. Didn't watch it again until maybe a year ago when my wife wanted to watch it. She's gotten really into Studio Ghibli and we've been working our way through the catalog. Even so, I was actually still hesitant to watch it. I found it much different than I remembered. Layered story with actual shades of gray that Hollywood isn't capable of producing. Only movie I can think of where there are multiple factions and none of them are clearly good or bad. Compelling narrative all around. It's genuinely a masterwork only outdone by Spirited Away. Point of my story is, I wasn't ready for it, I don't know if America was.

8bitsrule 4y ago
Looks as though Spirited Away (one of my favorite animations) also flummoxed the world. Here it (initially) earned $10M, (Japan at $234M, China $69M, France $6M) [https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0245429/ https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0245429/] Not too surprising for the US, which pretty much ignored electronic music, both domestic (except for NIN) and foreign (except for 'Autobahn'), until Prodigy arrived in 1996 with "Fat of the Land" (US#1??!!) and landed one more with 'Smack My Bitch Up'.
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  You must have a very narrow concept of "electronic music?" Otherwise, the second British invasion, hip hop, house, and freestyle, all huge in the 80s would like a word with you. Even things traditionally not electronic like R&B and Hard Rock were significantly influenced by drum machines and synthesizers in the 80s. TR-808? Keytars?
woojoo666 4y ago
> I found it much different than I remembered. Layered story with actual shades of gray that Hollywood isn't capable of producing. Only movie I can think of where there are multiple factions and none of them are clearly good or bad Actually I feel like western movies and tv tends to be more morally ambiguous than anime. In terms of multiple factions where none are clearly good/bad, Game of Thrones comes to mind

hamhamed 4y ago

My personal recomendation for HN users to get into Ghibli is to start with The Wind Rises. It's more recent (2014), and loosely based on a true story/biography. No crazy monsters or spirits. It also emcompasses creativty, engineering and hard work as the main characeter design a fighter plane. Truly a masterpiece that resonated with me Of course the other ones mentioned in this topic are good too.

JohnBooty 4y ago
As a counterpoint, I thought that was maybe my least favorite movie directed by Miyazaki! Even a bad Miyazaki movie is pretty good, but for me it didn't have what makes his other movies special. I'd recommend it only if a person absolutely can't, say, tolerate elements of the fantastical in their entertainment. The lead character is an engineer who makes planes, but the movie (understandably) doesn't really go into that part. Mononoke is probably tied with Wind Rises for "most serious Miyazaki movie." which might make it a perfect starting point for some in the HN crowd. Spirited Away is probably the closest to a universal crowd-pleaser?
elevaet 4y ago
The animation is _incredible_ in The Wind Rises.

YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago

>> Graphic and bloody violence is a key element of Princess Mononoke, making it far from children's fare (Credit: Alamy) No, no, no. That is exactly what children want to watch. It's their parents who don't want them to watch it. Kides themselves are all over this stuff and the moment they're old enough to get their hands on it, they binge on it. Speaking as someone who once was a child (with a splatter-gore phase no less).