4 ms·

I don't think there's such an easy attribution to capitalism. If anything, it's ignoring property rights when people become richer. If you consider the settler

by 8note 4y ago

I don't think there's such an easy attribution to capitalism. If anything, it's ignoring property rights when people become richer. If you consider the settler colonial projects like the USA, the wealth comes from ignoring the property ownership of the indigenous people, and then also the slavery, and the ignoring or intellectual property for inventions and arts. If you look at Europe, there's the extreme wealth transfer of living and shifting the Indian economy into Europe, along with you know, stealing the world's gold, silver, and other valuables. For more modern times, you also need to contend with unions and government regulations(including socialist policies), along with more wealth redistribution from things like the GI Bill. The people(and descendents) who benefited from the GI Bill are significantly wealthier than the people who didnt. Wealth and land redistribution, especially at the expense of poorer people gives a clearer direction for what has lifted people out of poverty.

WalterBright 4y ago
What you posted is certainly the prevailing modern opinion. Looking a bit deeper, though: 1. if wealth comes from owning property, why weren't the indigenous people wealthy? 2. In South America, the indigenous people were pushed off their land, too. Why did South America remain poor up to the present? 3. How did Japan become such an incredible economic power despite having little land and no natural resources? 4. The American slave states were never particularly wealthy, and what wealth there was was erased in the Civil War. Literally burned to the ground. Slavery did not build the wealth in the US. 5. The GIs earned the benefits from the GI bill. It is not wealth redistribution. They risked everything for yours and my freedoms. 6. The Spanish indeed took tons of gold & silver from S. America. Do you know what happened? Inflation! The same thing that happened after every gold rush. The reason is simple - gold is not wealth. Gold represents wealth.
- mlsu 4y ago
  The historical record soundly contradicts you wrt Japan. It modernized and became powerful on the backs of colonies in Manchuria and the Korean peninsula. Japan was a backwater prior to the Meiji Restoration, when those projects began. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosper...
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    I'm talking about after WW2. Japan's industry and economy were literally burned to the ground. Yet by the 1980s, the US was terrified that Japan's economy was going to take over the world. What they did after WW2 was adopt a free market.
- lovich 4y ago
  Point one made me hesitant but when I got to point five until I realized this was just propaganda. Property might not be 100% of what causes wealth cause you know, gotta mix capital with labor, but are you really arguing that America didn’t benefit off the stolen wealth of other nations? Is all the land that was taken from them valued at 0?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > are you really arguing that America didn’t benefit off the stolen wealth of other nations? Land by itself does nothing. Japan proved that land is not a crucial factor. Bill Gates' wealth didn't come from land. > mix capital with labor This is also not necessarily true. Slavery was certainly applied, but the wealth created thereby was minimal. The common factor with wealth creation is free markets. None of the other factors you mentioned.
    - lovich 4y ago
      > Land by itself does nothing. Japan proved that land is not a crucial factor. Can you show me a single successful enterprise that does not require any land? > This is also not necessarily true. Slavery was certainly applied, but the wealth created thereby was minimal. > The common factor with wealth creation is free markets. None of the other factors you mentioned. Jesus Christ guy, I’ve seen free market bootlickers before but this is a new, amazing level. Next are you going to tell us how the free market was so amazing before that rapscallion FDR came in and ruined the masterpiece of the free market that was the Great Depression? Or does the result of one of the most laissez-faire economic system a of all time not count because it ended bad?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > Can you show me a single successful enterprise that does not require any land? Businesses often rent office space. Microsoft got its start from a rented building. As I mentioned before, Japan became a world economic power with very little land. South Korea is another example. South America has plenty of land, and is mired in poverty. > Next are you going to tell us how the free market was so amazing before that rapscallion FDR came in and ruined the masterpiece of the free market that was the Great Depression? WW1 showed that the free market had turned a nation of poor immigrants into a super power. The doughboys arrived taller than the Europeans, and far better equipped and fed. The Great Depression was caused by the creation of the Fed in 1914. The Fed proceeded to the inflate the dollar, while keeping a fixed exchange rate with gold. The disparity led to what always happens with pegged currencies - collapse. The depression was deepened and lengthened by FDR not understanding what was going on. > bootlickers I suspect you've never heard the case for the free market before. It isn't taught in school or in college. Which is sad, because the schools graduate students into a market economy with little idea of how it works. For example, I saw some 12th grade history materials a few years ago that asserted that the middle class did not exist in the US before FDR. This is the nonsense taught in schools. > amazing Yes, it is amazing. The evidence is right in front of us. Feel free to refute the evidence I presented that free markets are the common thread in prosperity, not land nor slaves nor socialism. If you want some more, look at the historical statistics of height in the US. It went up all through the 19th century, up to WW2 where it leveled out. That's pretty good objective evidence of growing prosperity. Remember that the US was peopled by immigrants who arrived with nothing.

by 8note 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

What you posted is certainly the prevailing modern opinion. Looking a bit deeper, though: 1. if wealth comes from owning property, why weren't the indigenous people wealthy? 2. In South America, the indigenous people were pushed off their land, too. Why did South America remain poor up to the present? 3. How did Japan become such an incredible economic power despite having little land and no natural resources? 4. The American slave states were never particularly wealthy, and what wealth there was was erased in the Civil War. Literally burned to the ground. Slavery did not build the wealth in the US. 5. The GIs earned the benefits from the GI bill. It is not wealth redistribution. They risked everything for yours and my freedoms. 6. The Spanish indeed took tons of gold & silver from S. America. Do you know what happened? Inflation! The same thing that happened after every gold rush. The reason is simple - gold is not wealth. Gold represents wealth.

mlsu 4y ago
The historical record soundly contradicts you wrt Japan. It modernized and became powerful on the backs of colonies in Manchuria and the Korean peninsula. Japan was a backwater prior to the Meiji Restoration, when those projects began. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosper...
- WalterBright 4y ago
  I'm talking about after WW2. Japan's industry and economy were literally burned to the ground. Yet by the 1980s, the US was terrified that Japan's economy was going to take over the world. What they did after WW2 was adopt a free market.
lovich 4y ago
Point one made me hesitant but when I got to point five until I realized this was just propaganda. Property might not be 100% of what causes wealth cause you know, gotta mix capital with labor, but are you really arguing that America didn’t benefit off the stolen wealth of other nations? Is all the land that was taken from them valued at 0?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > are you really arguing that America didn’t benefit off the stolen wealth of other nations? Land by itself does nothing. Japan proved that land is not a crucial factor. Bill Gates' wealth didn't come from land. > mix capital with labor This is also not necessarily true. Slavery was certainly applied, but the wealth created thereby was minimal. The common factor with wealth creation is free markets. None of the other factors you mentioned.
  - lovich 4y ago
    > Land by itself does nothing. Japan proved that land is not a crucial factor. Can you show me a single successful enterprise that does not require any land? > This is also not necessarily true. Slavery was certainly applied, but the wealth created thereby was minimal. > The common factor with wealth creation is free markets. None of the other factors you mentioned. Jesus Christ guy, I’ve seen free market bootlickers before but this is a new, amazing level. Next are you going to tell us how the free market was so amazing before that rapscallion FDR came in and ruined the masterpiece of the free market that was the Great Depression? Or does the result of one of the most laissez-faire economic system a of all time not count because it ended bad?
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > Can you show me a single successful enterprise that does not require any land? Businesses often rent office space. Microsoft got its start from a rented building. As I mentioned before, Japan became a world economic power with very little land. South Korea is another example. South America has plenty of land, and is mired in poverty. > Next are you going to tell us how the free market was so amazing before that rapscallion FDR came in and ruined the masterpiece of the free market that was the Great Depression? WW1 showed that the free market had turned a nation of poor immigrants into a super power. The doughboys arrived taller than the Europeans, and far better equipped and fed. The Great Depression was caused by the creation of the Fed in 1914. The Fed proceeded to the inflate the dollar, while keeping a fixed exchange rate with gold. The disparity led to what always happens with pegged currencies - collapse. The depression was deepened and lengthened by FDR not understanding what was going on. > bootlickers I suspect you've never heard the case for the free market before. It isn't taught in school or in college. Which is sad, because the schools graduate students into a market economy with little idea of how it works. For example, I saw some 12th grade history materials a few years ago that asserted that the middle class did not exist in the US before FDR. This is the nonsense taught in schools. > amazing Yes, it is amazing. The evidence is right in front of us. Feel free to refute the evidence I presented that free markets are the common thread in prosperity, not land nor slaves nor socialism. If you want some more, look at the historical statistics of height in the US. It went up all through the 19th century, up to WW2 where it leveled out. That's pretty good objective evidence of growing prosperity. Remember that the US was peopled by immigrants who arrived with nothing.