7 ms·

I'm dreaming of the day when US cities start adopting car-light (if not car-free), walkable & bikeable urban designs. I have no interest in car centric 15-min c

I'm dreaming of the day when US cities start adopting car-light (if not car-free), walkable & bikeable urban designs. I have no interest in car centric 15-min cities. They are hard to scale and even when you achieve that goal with cars, the standard living is poor. Portland & Detroit comparison is a bit laughable. May be we'll see this one day, but I'll believe it when I see it.

bdcravens 4y ago
Climates in Texas and other southern areas make this borderline impossible during the summer. Ditto for northern cities in winter months.
- milkytron 4y ago
  I think there are steps that could help reduce the affects of heat. Things such as more street trees, less asphalt (reduce the heat island effect), heat reflecting building roofs, etc. It's not like the south is a lost cause, improvement can still be made.
  - bdcravens 4y ago
    Perhaps but 102 is still 102. I think you can make the same argument in Chicago when it's 10 and snowing.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      Plenty of people walk to do things like get groceries in Chicago. Heck, there is a subartic city in Finland with 12% cycling share, which is a lot higher than pretty much any city in North America. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/amp/2021/01/22/meet-the-bike-loving-finnish-city-that-keeps-pedalling-even-in-the-snow https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/amp/2021/01/22/meet-the-b...
      - dhosek 4y ago
        I lived car-free in Chicago for 7 years. I now live in an inner-ring suburb (Oak Park), car-light (my wife and I share a car that I drive as little as possible). If we define 15 minutes as ¾ mile walking distance, I have within that range, two supermarkets, a library, health clubs, coffee shops, two drug stores, dry cleaners, banks, doctors, dentists, schools, daycare and a number of restaurants not to mention a stop on the “L” and at least half a dozen bus routes within my 15-minute zone. If I didn’t prefer Trader Joe’s to a mainstream super, I wouldn’t drive to go grocery shopping (and TJs is just over a mile away). If I expand my range a bit more, I add in even more of all the above plus a book store and movie theater.
    - munk-a 4y ago
      Chicago can (and in some areas has - along with Boston) fixed that issue with pedestrian tunnels that allow easy movement during cold weather. A similar fix is available for southern cities but I think a more reasonable approach is just tighter pedestrian alleys that prevent full sun from ever bathing the walking surface (and reduce sun exposure to buildings) along with lots and lots of trees. Trees are seriously amazing and dissipating heat from the sun. Once you eliminate the sun you just need to make sure that wind alleys are set up to keep air moving through the city and have regular green spaces with water to help reduce air temperature. This can be done quite sustainably - Las Vegas is actually a great example of (rather) sustainable water use from a city built in the middle of a desert.
- PeopleB4Cars 4y ago
  Perhaps we shouldn't be encouraging people to live in such places then
- NegativeLatency 4y ago
  Your claim about northern cities is just not backed up by data, we have: - the large amount of bike culture in Minneapolis, people ride all year long (once you're moving you'll stay pretty warm with the right gear) https://gearjunkie.com/biking/minneapolis-bike-capital https://gearjunkie.com/biking/minneapolis-bike-capital - the bike culture in Finland where it's even colder: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2020/feb/08/why-finland-leads-the-field-when-it-comes-to-winter-cycling https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2020/feb/0... the difference in most of the US that it's not prioritized by local government, bike lanes don't get plowed and fill up with gravel, there's not sufficient bike infrastructure to being with etc
  - eru 4y ago
    And for hot places: have a look at how Singapore deal with these things. (Yes, it's too hot to enjoy biking during the day. But public transport is great, and has aircon.)
- cpursley 4y ago
  Tell that to the Russians and the Spanish...
- sunflowerfly 4y ago
  The Not Just Bikes Youtube channel did a great episode on why some places have winter cycling and others do not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
rmbyrro 4y ago
How do self-driving cars change this equation? I imagine they'll drastically reduce parking needs, opening space for traffic lanes (reduce congestion) and commercial/services areas (make things closer to home).
- LeonidasXIV 4y ago
  Opening space for traffic lanes does not reduce congestion, it induces demand (for more traffic lanes).
  - anamax 4y ago
    The demand was always there. There was just no hope of satisfying it before.
    - asoneth 4y ago
      Self-driving cars make driving easier so they will increase the demand for private vehicle travel and make it even less likely that we can satisfy demand. I'm not even sure it is possible to satisfy this demand in a city. Houston has 26-lane highways and they are still building more roads to handle traffic. LA uses 14% of all land for car parking and is still building more parking spots. I suppose there must be a theoretical upper bound past which building more space for cars does not eventually induce more driving, but I know of no city that has reached that limit.
pharmakom 4y ago
> I have no interest in car centric 15-min cities. A car centric 15 minute city is literally impossible. There will always be too much congestion to get anywhere in 15 minutes since cars take up too much space.
- SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago
  It is possible, just not scalable. It is ready for a small city to be a car centric 15 minute city, but once population reaches the 6 digits problems start to arise, and ~500k is the rough upper limit where it becomes impossible.
- sien 4y ago
  I live in a car centric 15 minute city. My work is ~13 minutes away. There is a Primary and Secondary School within 5 and 20 minutes walk. A supermarket is a 10 minute bike ride away. A hospital is 10 minutes drive away. A top 50 ranked University is 25 minutes drive away. There is a good question from w-j-w that has been deleted here. Yes - it's a 15 minute car city at 8:30 AM. My commute goes to about 14 minutes... This is on the days when I'm not WFH - which should also be factored in.
  - w-j-w 4y ago
    Is your city a 15 minute city at 8:30 AM?
  - imachine1980_ 4y ago
    where?, sound interesting to research.
    - sien 4y ago
      Canberra.
      - HeyItsMatt 4y ago
        Walter Burley Griffin designed Canberra with space allotted for highly efficient tramways that still haven't been built. The guy has been dead for nearly one hundred years and the city still hasn't assigned a replacement urban planner...
kieselguhr_kid 4y ago
I live in one of the "complete neighborhoods" in Portland and it's really nice. I can walk to the grocery store to buy fresh food for each day, and I'm less than fifteen minutes by foot from three public parks (and a tiny one that I don't really count). This is far from representative of the city itself, but I would never want to give this lifestyle up.
- kqr 4y ago
  This really gave me pause. I know the US is car-centric, but walking to the grocery store and at most 15 minutes to a real park sounds like the bare minimum for a livable location in my mind. Is the implication that regular US cities don't even fulfill that requirement?
  - ArgusStrav 4y ago
    For reference: The nearest grocery store to me is 3 km away, down a hill and across an interstate that does not have a method for pedestrians to cross it, other than playing Frogger, if you know what I mean. And that store is overpriced and doesn't have a good selection. The next-closest store is 8 km away. I live in a suburban area in a town of 30k.
  - martopix 4y ago
    When I first visited the US I was pretty appalled. Silicon Valley towns are huge stretches of residential areas where you can't even get a coffee on foot, you might be ok by cycling if they're not too large. In inland non-ancient cities, even the city centre is built for cars --- you can go around and get things by foot in the centre, but the roads are still made for cars, so you're constantly crossing 4-lane roads and walking across huge parking lots.
munk-a 4y ago
Burlington VT was a lovely city to live in though the fact that it's Vermont means you'd need a car to get practically anywhere the downtown core is dense enough to allow you to walk, eat, shop and dine[1]. But, honestly, the city has pretty weak public transit infrastructure due to its size and the grocery options available by foot are extremely limited and pricey. I think it's one of the better options in N/A outside of NYC, Boston and places in Canada (especially Quebec City and Montreal) - Boulder also often comes up in discussion though I've never been. Comparing these to European cities which weren't leveled in WW2 is insane though - when pedestrians are first class citizens cities are absolutely wonderful to live in. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_Marketplace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_Marketplace
cpursley 4y ago
It's just not going to happen until gas is over $10 gallon.
presentation 4y ago
I couldn't let my dreams be dreams, so I left the USA.
- kuldeep_kap 4y ago
  where did you move? hows the city life there?
  - presentation 4y ago
    Tokyo, the best

bdcravens 4y ago

Climates in Texas and other southern areas make this borderline impossible during the summer. Ditto for northern cities in winter months.

milkytron 4y ago
I think there are steps that could help reduce the affects of heat. Things such as more street trees, less asphalt (reduce the heat island effect), heat reflecting building roofs, etc. It's not like the south is a lost cause, improvement can still be made.
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Perhaps but 102 is still 102. I think you can make the same argument in Chicago when it's 10 and snowing.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    Plenty of people walk to do things like get groceries in Chicago. Heck, there is a subartic city in Finland with 12% cycling share, which is a lot higher than pretty much any city in North America. https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/amp/2021/01/22/meet-the-bike-loving-finnish-city-that-keeps-pedalling-even-in-the-snow https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/amp/2021/01/22/meet-the-b...
    - dhosek 4y ago
      I lived car-free in Chicago for 7 years. I now live in an inner-ring suburb (Oak Park), car-light (my wife and I share a car that I drive as little as possible). If we define 15 minutes as ¾ mile walking distance, I have within that range, two supermarkets, a library, health clubs, coffee shops, two drug stores, dry cleaners, banks, doctors, dentists, schools, daycare and a number of restaurants not to mention a stop on the “L” and at least half a dozen bus routes within my 15-minute zone. If I didn’t prefer Trader Joe’s to a mainstream super, I wouldn’t drive to go grocery shopping (and TJs is just over a mile away). If I expand my range a bit more, I add in even more of all the above plus a book store and movie theater.
  - munk-a 4y ago
    Chicago can (and in some areas has - along with Boston) fixed that issue with pedestrian tunnels that allow easy movement during cold weather. A similar fix is available for southern cities but I think a more reasonable approach is just tighter pedestrian alleys that prevent full sun from ever bathing the walking surface (and reduce sun exposure to buildings) along with lots and lots of trees. Trees are seriously amazing and dissipating heat from the sun. Once you eliminate the sun you just need to make sure that wind alleys are set up to keep air moving through the city and have regular green spaces with water to help reduce air temperature. This can be done quite sustainably - Las Vegas is actually a great example of (rather) sustainable water use from a city built in the middle of a desert.
PeopleB4Cars 4y ago
Perhaps we shouldn't be encouraging people to live in such places then
NegativeLatency 4y ago
Your claim about northern cities is just not backed up by data, we have: - the large amount of bike culture in Minneapolis, people ride all year long (once you're moving you'll stay pretty warm with the right gear) https://gearjunkie.com/biking/minneapolis-bike-capital https://gearjunkie.com/biking/minneapolis-bike-capital - the bike culture in Finland where it's even colder: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2020/feb/08/why-finland-leads-the-field-when-it-comes-to-winter-cycling https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2020/feb/0... the difference in most of the US that it's not prioritized by local government, bike lanes don't get plowed and fill up with gravel, there's not sufficient bike infrastructure to being with etc
- eru 4y ago
  And for hot places: have a look at how Singapore deal with these things. (Yes, it's too hot to enjoy biking during the day. But public transport is great, and has aircon.)
cpursley 4y ago
Tell that to the Russians and the Spanish...
sunflowerfly 4y ago
The Not Just Bikes Youtube channel did a great episode on why some places have winter cycling and others do not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

rmbyrro 4y ago

How do self-driving cars change this equation? I imagine they'll drastically reduce parking needs, opening space for traffic lanes (reduce congestion) and commercial/services areas (make things closer to home).

LeonidasXIV 4y ago
Opening space for traffic lanes does not reduce congestion, it induces demand (for more traffic lanes).
- anamax 4y ago
  The demand was always there. There was just no hope of satisfying it before.
  - asoneth 4y ago
    Self-driving cars make driving easier so they will increase the demand for private vehicle travel and make it even less likely that we can satisfy demand. I'm not even sure it is possible to satisfy this demand in a city. Houston has 26-lane highways and they are still building more roads to handle traffic. LA uses 14% of all land for car parking and is still building more parking spots. I suppose there must be a theoretical upper bound past which building more space for cars does not eventually induce more driving, but I know of no city that has reached that limit.

pharmakom 4y ago

> I have no interest in car centric 15-min cities. A car centric 15 minute city is literally impossible. There will always be too much congestion to get anywhere in 15 minutes since cars take up too much space.

SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago
It is possible, just not scalable. It is ready for a small city to be a car centric 15 minute city, but once population reaches the 6 digits problems start to arise, and ~500k is the rough upper limit where it becomes impossible.
sien 4y ago
I live in a car centric 15 minute city. My work is ~13 minutes away. There is a Primary and Secondary School within 5 and 20 minutes walk. A supermarket is a 10 minute bike ride away. A hospital is 10 minutes drive away. A top 50 ranked University is 25 minutes drive away. There is a good question from w-j-w that has been deleted here. Yes - it's a 15 minute car city at 8:30 AM. My commute goes to about 14 minutes... This is on the days when I'm not WFH - which should also be factored in.
- w-j-w 4y ago
  Is your city a 15 minute city at 8:30 AM?
- imachine1980_ 4y ago
  where?, sound interesting to research.
  - sien 4y ago
    Canberra.
    - HeyItsMatt 4y ago
      Walter Burley Griffin designed Canberra with space allotted for highly efficient tramways that still haven't been built. The guy has been dead for nearly one hundred years and the city still hasn't assigned a replacement urban planner...

kieselguhr_kid 4y ago

I live in one of the "complete neighborhoods" in Portland and it's really nice. I can walk to the grocery store to buy fresh food for each day, and I'm less than fifteen minutes by foot from three public parks (and a tiny one that I don't really count). This is far from representative of the city itself, but I would never want to give this lifestyle up.

kqr 4y ago
This really gave me pause. I know the US is car-centric, but walking to the grocery store and at most 15 minutes to a real park sounds like the bare minimum for a livable location in my mind. Is the implication that regular US cities don't even fulfill that requirement?
- ArgusStrav 4y ago
  For reference: The nearest grocery store to me is 3 km away, down a hill and across an interstate that does not have a method for pedestrians to cross it, other than playing Frogger, if you know what I mean. And that store is overpriced and doesn't have a good selection. The next-closest store is 8 km away. I live in a suburban area in a town of 30k.
- martopix 4y ago
  When I first visited the US I was pretty appalled. Silicon Valley towns are huge stretches of residential areas where you can't even get a coffee on foot, you might be ok by cycling if they're not too large. In inland non-ancient cities, even the city centre is built for cars --- you can go around and get things by foot in the centre, but the roads are still made for cars, so you're constantly crossing 4-lane roads and walking across huge parking lots.

munk-a 4y ago

Burlington VT was a lovely city to live in though the fact that it's Vermont means you'd need a car to get practically anywhere the downtown core is dense enough to allow you to walk, eat, shop and dine[1]. But, honestly, the city has pretty weak public transit infrastructure due to its size and the grocery options available by foot are extremely limited and pricey. I think it's one of the better options in N/A outside of NYC, Boston and places in Canada (especially Quebec City and Montreal) - Boulder also often comes up in discussion though I've never been. Comparing these to European cities which weren't leveled in WW2 is insane though - when pedestrians are first class citizens cities are absolutely wonderful to live in. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_Marketplace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Street_Marketplace

cpursley 4y ago

It's just not going to happen until gas is over $10 gallon.

presentation 4y ago

I couldn't let my dreams be dreams, so I left the USA.

kuldeep_kap 4y ago
where did you move? hows the city life there?
- presentation 4y ago
  Tokyo, the best