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> Fuel production is much cheaper for EVs, what are you talking about? No it's very much not. Please see chapter 4 of the linked MIT report: Fuel production

by culi 4y ago

> Fuel production is much cheaper for EVs, what are you talking about? No it's very much not. Please see chapter 4 of the linked MIT report: Fuel production emissions are also typically higher for BEVs (and FCEVs) because, on average, generating and delivering a megajoule of electricity or hydrogen to a vehicle battery or fuel cell consumes much more energy than producing and delivering a megajoule of gasoline to the fuel tank of an ICE

Robotbeat 4y ago
But you said “cheaper,” additionally this ignores the input fossil energy of the gasoline, and it’s per joule of thermal energy, not useful mechanical energy. It’s a weird metric that isn’t very enlightening. It’s mixing low-entropy electrical energy with high-entropy thermal “primary energy.” It’s also not what you actually said. The cost of energy (as well as emissions) per mile traveled is far, FAR less in electric vehicles.
- culi 4y ago
  Again, you're misunderstanding the point. I really recommend you just check out the first few pages of chapter 4 of the full MIT report. Yes the emissions per mile travelled is less in EVs. Nobody is arguing against that. There's 3 categories here: 1. Emissions from initial production 2. Emissions from fuel production 3. Emissions from fuel consumption For EVs, emissions from 1 and 2 are higher. But this is more than offset by having 0 emissions from the third category. So yes, the emissions per mile traveled is less in EVs. However the cost of fuel production per mile traveled is still significantly higher (around 192% higher) PS you're the only one who used the word "cheaper". I only used it when directly quoting you. I presumed we were still measuring by emissions and not by dollar cost, but I see now that you were talking about something else EDIT: check out figure 4.6 on page 68
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    On the contrary, you made the false claim about fuel production cost being more expensive for EVs yourself here when not quoting me: > “cost of fuel production (also much higher for EVs)”

by culi 4y ago

Robotbeat 4y ago

But you said “cheaper,” additionally this ignores the input fossil energy of the gasoline, and it’s per joule of thermal energy, not useful mechanical energy. It’s a weird metric that isn’t very enlightening. It’s mixing low-entropy electrical energy with high-entropy thermal “primary energy.” It’s also not what you actually said. The cost of energy (as well as emissions) per mile traveled is far, FAR less in electric vehicles.

culi 4y ago
Again, you're misunderstanding the point. I really recommend you just check out the first few pages of chapter 4 of the full MIT report. Yes the emissions per mile travelled is less in EVs. Nobody is arguing against that. There's 3 categories here: 1. Emissions from initial production 2. Emissions from fuel production 3. Emissions from fuel consumption For EVs, emissions from 1 and 2 are higher. But this is more than offset by having 0 emissions from the third category. So yes, the emissions per mile traveled is less in EVs. However the cost of fuel production per mile traveled is still significantly higher (around 192% higher) PS you're the only one who used the word "cheaper". I only used it when directly quoting you. I presumed we were still measuring by emissions and not by dollar cost, but I see now that you were talking about something else EDIT: check out figure 4.6 on page 68
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  On the contrary, you made the false claim about fuel production cost being more expensive for EVs yourself here when not quoting me: > “cost of fuel production (also much higher for EVs)”