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This is actually where NASA gets a significant amount of hardware: manufactured parts from intelligence programs that were the rejects from those production lin

This is actually where NASA gets a significant amount of hardware: manufactured parts from intelligence programs that were the rejects from those production lines. Hubble was a prime example of this, but there are many others.

SiempreViernes 4y ago
You got any source for that claim?
- themitigating 4y ago
  Why does he need proof? People always say government is bad and evil therefore can't you just "feel" this is true? Now take this as a fact and next time someone makes an accusation use it to show a history.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    structural didn't suggest that NASA repurposing military tech is "bad and evil". Why would it be? That's just your own bias, and one I doubt you can back up with much rational argument. Was the Gemini program "evil and bad" because the Titan II boosters used were originally developed as ICBMs? That wasn't evil, that was smart. Anyway, he's substantially if not completely correct and it's not hard to find sources backing up the connection between the HST and KH-11 spy satellites if you bother to look it up. In the sibling comment to yours, I provide a link to a book about NASA, hosted on NASA's website a few years ago, that says Hubble's primary mirror was fabricated using technology developed for the military, that a 2.4 meter mirror was specifically chosen to make that reuse possible. The mirrors were almost certainly manufactured by the same people on the same tools. Read the wiki page for the KH-11 and you'll see that the apparently similarities run deeper than that. Dimensions and general structure of the satellites are also believed to be the the same. None of this is fringe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_KENNEN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_KENNEN And if any of the above is too speculative or unsubstantiated for you, try this on for size: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_National_Reconnaissance_Office_space_telescope_donation_to_NASA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_National_Reconnaissance_O... And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMT_Observatory#Multiple_Mirror_Telescope_(1979%E2%80%931998) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMT_Observatory#Multiple_Mirro...
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  I'm not sure he's precisely correct, but Hubble's primary mirror was changed from 3 meters to 2.4 meters, which happened to be the same size as the primary mirrors for the KH-11 KENNEN series of spy satellites. The book Power To Explore - History of Marshall Space Flight Center 1960-1990 says of the decision to change the mirror: > "In addition, changing to a 2.4-meter mirror would lessen fabrication costs by using manufacturing technologies developed for military spy satellites." https://web.archive.org/web/20110615091530/http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/book/chpttwelve.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20110615091530/http://history.ms...
  - SiempreViernes 4y ago
    There's quite a difference between "used infrastructure built by the military for their needs" and "manufactured parts from intelligence programs that were the rejects from those production lines". Especially the strong implication that Hubble is made out of lower tolerance parts, since they are rejects, is a claim that need significantly more evidence than what you provided here. Pointing a telescope at something bright and nearby is easier than something very distant and dim, so the precision requirements are obviously in the opposite direction.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      > Pointing a telescope at something bright and nearby is easier than something very distant and dim, so the precision requirements are obviously in the opposite direction. You're wrong. Between 1979 and 1998 the MMT Observatory used six repurposed spy satellite mirrors that had been donated by the NRO, manufactured for the cancelled KH-10. Furthermore in 2012 the NRO donated two unflown spy satellites to NASA, the mirrors from which may be used for the upcoming Roman Space Telescope. Spy satellite mirrors make great telescope mirrors. > "manufactured parts from intelligence programs [...]" As I point out above, the NRO has donated at least eight primary mirrors that were specifically manufactured for cancelled or unused spy satellites. The Hubble mirror may be another example of such, or it may have merely been fabricated by the same people. > that were the rejects from those production lines". That's the only dodgy part of his claim, but it's not that strange of a claim when you recall that Hubble's primary mirror infamously had a spherical aberration. I presume NASA didn't know about the aberration before they launched HST, otherwise they should have corrected for it on the ground instead of having astronauts correct it in space. But it doesn't seem completely outlandish that the NRO gave NASA mirrors they had previously deemed unsuitable for their own use.

SiempreViernes 4y ago

You got any source for that claim?

themitigating 4y ago
Why does he need proof? People always say government is bad and evil therefore can't you just "feel" this is true? Now take this as a fact and next time someone makes an accusation use it to show a history.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  structural didn't suggest that NASA repurposing military tech is "bad and evil". Why would it be? That's just your own bias, and one I doubt you can back up with much rational argument. Was the Gemini program "evil and bad" because the Titan II boosters used were originally developed as ICBMs? That wasn't evil, that was smart. Anyway, he's substantially if not completely correct and it's not hard to find sources backing up the connection between the HST and KH-11 spy satellites if you bother to look it up. In the sibling comment to yours, I provide a link to a book about NASA, hosted on NASA's website a few years ago, that says Hubble's primary mirror was fabricated using technology developed for the military, that a 2.4 meter mirror was specifically chosen to make that reuse possible. The mirrors were almost certainly manufactured by the same people on the same tools. Read the wiki page for the KH-11 and you'll see that the apparently similarities run deeper than that. Dimensions and general structure of the satellites are also believed to be the the same. None of this is fringe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_KENNEN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KH-11_KENNEN And if any of the above is too speculative or unsubstantiated for you, try this on for size: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_National_Reconnaissance_Office_space_telescope_donation_to_NASA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_National_Reconnaissance_O... And this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMT_Observatory#Multiple_Mirror_Telescope_(1979%E2%80%931998) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMT_Observatory#Multiple_Mirro...
MichaelCollins 4y ago
I'm not sure he's precisely correct, but Hubble's primary mirror was changed from 3 meters to 2.4 meters, which happened to be the same size as the primary mirrors for the KH-11 KENNEN series of spy satellites. The book Power To Explore - History of Marshall Space Flight Center 1960-1990 says of the decision to change the mirror: > "In addition, changing to a 2.4-meter mirror would lessen fabrication costs by using manufacturing technologies developed for military spy satellites." https://web.archive.org/web/20110615091530/http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/book/chpttwelve.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20110615091530/http://history.ms...
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  There's quite a difference between "used infrastructure built by the military for their needs" and "manufactured parts from intelligence programs that were the rejects from those production lines". Especially the strong implication that Hubble is made out of lower tolerance parts, since they are rejects, is a claim that need significantly more evidence than what you provided here. Pointing a telescope at something bright and nearby is easier than something very distant and dim, so the precision requirements are obviously in the opposite direction.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    > Pointing a telescope at something bright and nearby is easier than something very distant and dim, so the precision requirements are obviously in the opposite direction. You're wrong. Between 1979 and 1998 the MMT Observatory used six repurposed spy satellite mirrors that had been donated by the NRO, manufactured for the cancelled KH-10. Furthermore in 2012 the NRO donated two unflown spy satellites to NASA, the mirrors from which may be used for the upcoming Roman Space Telescope. Spy satellite mirrors make great telescope mirrors. > "manufactured parts from intelligence programs [...]" As I point out above, the NRO has donated at least eight primary mirrors that were specifically manufactured for cancelled or unused spy satellites. The Hubble mirror may be another example of such, or it may have merely been fabricated by the same people. > that were the rejects from those production lines". That's the only dodgy part of his claim, but it's not that strange of a claim when you recall that Hubble's primary mirror infamously had a spherical aberration. I presume NASA didn't know about the aberration before they launched HST, otherwise they should have corrected for it on the ground instead of having astronauts correct it in space. But it doesn't seem completely outlandish that the NRO gave NASA mirrors they had previously deemed unsuitable for their own use.