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https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/psni-assessment-of-ira-army-council-relationship-with-sinn-fein-remains-unchanged-says-chief-constable-simon-byrne-31874

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/psni-assessment-of-ira-army-council-relationship-with-sinn-fein-remains-unchanged-says-chief-constable-simon-byrne-3187440 https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/psni-assessment-of-i... There is good evidence to indicate that the IRA Army Council is still heavily involved in running Sinn Fein. And it is no wonder, because the links between the two organisations are pretty tight and always have been. The party still calls itself "the political wing of the Provisional IRA". In response to an audience member shouting "Up the 'RA", Gerry Adams famously replied with glee "They haven't gone away you know". Sinn Fein to this day praises and commemorates former IRA murderers. Michelle O'Neill comes from a family of proud IRA members. I could go on. Endorsing the organisation now is endorsing its history and aims, which haven't diverged despite the young faces and heavy layers of PR gloss. > pride at having held off the British Army And a lot of civilians who guarded prisons, happened to be going to work, were 'suspected' touts, were buying fish and chips, or were watching military parades to commemorate real sacrifice like that made in WWII. Real reconciliation would be possible with moderate nationalists, not people who call Unionists "bastards" in private, or say "equality is a trojan horse for Nationalism".

biorach 4y ago
Still, there are not good grounds to say that SF and the IRA are the same thing. All the evidence points to the aims having changed - the aim of violent overthrow of British rule seems to have been abandoned, as evidence by the last 25 years. But look... If you think no reconciliation is possible then there's no real point in saying any of this to you
- HeckFeck 4y ago
  > there are not good grounds to say that SF and the IRA are the same thing. What would be good enough grounds, in your view? > If you think no reconciliation is possible then there's no real point in saying any of this to you If you think I mean reconciliation with nationalists is impossible, that is not the case at all. If you think reconciliation is possible with a party that has admitted in private that its public friendly persona is a trojan horse, I won't be taken for a fool.
  - biorach 4y ago
    > What would be good enough grounds, in your view? That's getting a bit hypothetical. I'm just working with the evidence available to me right now. If strong enough evidence appears to the contrary then I will change my mind And look... If you think that whatever off the cuff comments are actually the defining statement of the party's essence then ok, go with that.
    - HeckFeck 4y ago
      Evidence, like the presence of several senior Provisional IRA members in the upper party ranks, and reliable intelligence that indicates that the IRA Army Council directs both PIRA and Sinn Fein strategy? The honoured presence of all senior Sinn Fein members at funerals for notorious PIRA members? The pro-IRA chants at election counts? Politics is a game where truth is expended for convenience, and in this regard SF/IRA are hardly exceptions. They called it the "Ballet box and armalite" strategy. Would you at least agree that choosing an alternative party without these connections and connotations would be a better gesture from the Nationalist community to Unionists? > off the cuff comments I would say that an address to a party audience by the party founder addressing party strategy gives the comments significant weight, yes. If Jeffery Donaldson made comments remotely like these they would make headlines for weeks. > party's essence Sinn Fein - Ourselves Alone.
      - biorach 4y ago
        I'm really wanting to wrap this up and get to bed > reliable intelligence that indicates that the IRA Army Council directs both PIRA and Sinn Fein strategy Again, I _think_ I'm aware of most of the relevant evidence and to me it indicates that some former high ranking IRA members still are involved in the party leadership, but nowhere near the extent that they could be said to "control" the party > Would you at least agree that choosing an alternative party without these connections and connotations would be a better gesture from the Nationalist community to Unionists? Yeah I see your point. But, let's face it, neither community has been all that good with gestures. I could go on about speeches made by the founding member of the DUP, but, you know what, that shit is in the past, I'd rather just move on. > Sinn Fein - Ourselves Alone. Ouch... That's not the literal meaning... Not easy to explain. Irish is a tricky bitch of a language, best just leave it out.
sentinalien 4y ago
>In response to an audience member shouting "Up the 'RA", Gerry Adams famously replied with glee "They haven't gone away you know" You're talking as if this happened recently and not nearly 30 years ago >Sinn Fein to this day praises and commemorates former IRA murderers. So what? How often do unionists have a bad word to say about the British forces that have spent centuries terrorizing and murdering Irish people? How are nationalists supposed to reconcile with people who by and large vote for political parties that do not support the GFA (presumably they would prefer to go back to armed conflict? perhaps the protestant supremacist state formed in 1921?) or turn up en masse to prance about in July with the deeply unpleasant orange order?
- HeckFeck 4y ago
  I just needed to highlight the irony in condemning me for bringing up the past, then you bring up the past and use that to condemn the British people. All in the same post. Congratulations.

biorach 4y ago

Still, there are not good grounds to say that SF and the IRA are the same thing. All the evidence points to the aims having changed - the aim of violent overthrow of British rule seems to have been abandoned, as evidence by the last 25 years. But look... If you think no reconciliation is possible then there's no real point in saying any of this to you

HeckFeck 4y ago
> there are not good grounds to say that SF and the IRA are the same thing. What would be good enough grounds, in your view? > If you think no reconciliation is possible then there's no real point in saying any of this to you If you think I mean reconciliation with nationalists is impossible, that is not the case at all. If you think reconciliation is possible with a party that has admitted in private that its public friendly persona is a trojan horse, I won't be taken for a fool.
- biorach 4y ago
  > What would be good enough grounds, in your view? That's getting a bit hypothetical. I'm just working with the evidence available to me right now. If strong enough evidence appears to the contrary then I will change my mind And look... If you think that whatever off the cuff comments are actually the defining statement of the party's essence then ok, go with that.
  - HeckFeck 4y ago
    Evidence, like the presence of several senior Provisional IRA members in the upper party ranks, and reliable intelligence that indicates that the IRA Army Council directs both PIRA and Sinn Fein strategy? The honoured presence of all senior Sinn Fein members at funerals for notorious PIRA members? The pro-IRA chants at election counts? Politics is a game where truth is expended for convenience, and in this regard SF/IRA are hardly exceptions. They called it the "Ballet box and armalite" strategy. Would you at least agree that choosing an alternative party without these connections and connotations would be a better gesture from the Nationalist community to Unionists? > off the cuff comments I would say that an address to a party audience by the party founder addressing party strategy gives the comments significant weight, yes. If Jeffery Donaldson made comments remotely like these they would make headlines for weeks. > party's essence Sinn Fein - Ourselves Alone.
    - biorach 4y ago
      I'm really wanting to wrap this up and get to bed > reliable intelligence that indicates that the IRA Army Council directs both PIRA and Sinn Fein strategy Again, I _think_ I'm aware of most of the relevant evidence and to me it indicates that some former high ranking IRA members still are involved in the party leadership, but nowhere near the extent that they could be said to "control" the party > Would you at least agree that choosing an alternative party without these connections and connotations would be a better gesture from the Nationalist community to Unionists? Yeah I see your point. But, let's face it, neither community has been all that good with gestures. I could go on about speeches made by the founding member of the DUP, but, you know what, that shit is in the past, I'd rather just move on. > Sinn Fein - Ourselves Alone. Ouch... That's not the literal meaning... Not easy to explain. Irish is a tricky bitch of a language, best just leave it out.

sentinalien 4y ago

>In response to an audience member shouting "Up the 'RA", Gerry Adams famously replied with glee "They haven't gone away you know" You're talking as if this happened recently and not nearly 30 years ago >Sinn Fein to this day praises and commemorates former IRA murderers. So what? How often do unionists have a bad word to say about the British forces that have spent centuries terrorizing and murdering Irish people? How are nationalists supposed to reconcile with people who by and large vote for political parties that do not support the GFA (presumably they would prefer to go back to armed conflict? perhaps the protestant supremacist state formed in 1921?) or turn up en masse to prance about in July with the deeply unpleasant orange order?

HeckFeck 4y ago
I just needed to highlight the irony in condemning me for bringing up the past, then you bring up the past and use that to condemn the British people. All in the same post. Congratulations.