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As with the vast majority of consumer preferences it is a combination of: 1. Not being introduced to the breadth of options that are available 2. Being told,

by uoaei 4y ago

As with the vast majority of consumer preferences it is a combination of: 1. Not being introduced to the breadth of options that are available 2. Being told, or else insinuated to, that certain options represent higher status or achievement than others Americans want small detached houses because the ubiquity of the social construct known as "the American dream" drilled it into everyone's heads from the postwar period onward. Sitcoms through the television era both represented and reinforced this ideal. But choices can be unmade as easily as they are made.

salawat 4y ago
>But choices can be unmade as easily as they are made. ...Do...do you even program? Or build? Because that right there tells me that you've never, ever been realistically engaged with a long term decision with long tails (read: other people that aren't you as stakeholders, or strings of dependent decisions). There is nothing more permanent than a temporary stopgap, and bells that can be unrung are exceedingly rare, and never ever trivial to implement.
- uoaei 4y ago
  Choices come before, and are distinct from, actions.
buscoquadnary 4y ago
I wanted one because having to deal with other people that I share walls with freaking sucks. You constantly stress that your neighbors are going to come down and yell at you because your kid is throwing a tantrum, you have to deal with your idiot neighbors downstairs screaming and yelling at each other till 2 in the morning. If you have a newborn baby you are plauged by the constant fear that your neighbors are going to be too loud and wake the baby up. So no it isn't just a status or American dream option it's a significant change in quality of life. It seems like too many of these discussions on HN consider only young single people and they just ignore that many people have families and children they need to keep around all the time.
- rsaz 4y ago
  I don't think anyone is advocating for only apartments and condos. If you have a family, can afford a car, and are willing to make compromises to be in a single-family home, that should absolutely be an option. Adding multi-family homes just adds a new, cheaper option that increases density. There are lots of benefits to it, and its really reductive to say "The 'missing middle' is bad because I wouldn't want to live like that".
  - frumper 4y ago
    Where do you add the multi-family homes? I don't see a lot of unused real estate in the cities I've been to.
    - uoaei 4y ago
      I don't know how you can tell what is unused real estate vs vacant-but-owned real estate from the outside. I also don't know how you can see into the 30-something-story windows of high-rise luxury condos to determine whether or not they are being used.
      - pandaman 4y ago
        It's pretty easy to tell by cars in the driveways and lights in the windows.
        uoaei 4y ago
        No, it's not. Lights are often on timers and cars are often tied to houses for those with second homes in different locations, so as to make them appear occupied so squatters and thieves are discouraged from entering while the owners are elsewhere. These are obvious considerations and I am surprised they did not cross your mind.
        pandaman 4y ago
        I see, so there is some kind of service that drives a car to and from a house and/or keeps the car parked but washes it regularly or every investor DIY this? How often does it happen you recon?
dominotw 4y ago
>1. Not being introduced to the breadth of options that are available Pretty sure most americans have experience living in apartments before they buy. I am just too old now to live below a toddler who decides 3 am is a good time to burn some calories running around. It has nothing to do with 'status' , i just want peace and a good night of sleep. I don't agree with your analysis that people don't want to live in dense house because of they are brainwashed with "american dream"
kory 4y ago
Sorry, I don't buy that either. Single family homes are objectively nicer in many ways. Some, like mine, are even in very walkable neighborhoods. I've lived in apartments and houses, and I'd take the house every single time. That's not because I grew up in a house, either. I hated housework as a kid and the family thought I'd be a downtown condo dweller until I actually wanted to buy a house. The vast majority of people do not care about walkability. Maybe that's because they grew up without it--even given that, you can't seriously tell me the vast majority of people would pick the "missing middle" over a small house in a walkable area given the choice. If I was forced to pick between walkable + apartment or house + long commute to anything, I'd do the commute every single time.
- rsaz 4y ago
  There are lots of comments here talking about how living in a single-family home is nicer than a condo, and while I generally agree, it doesn't mean we shouldn't build apartments and condos. A variety of options is good and people look for different things in a living space. If I was forced to pick between walkable + apartment or house + long commute to anything, I'd do the apartment every single time. Especially since it would likely be cheaper.
- uoaei 4y ago
  > The vast majority of people do not care about walkability. Wow, such authority. Sources for this strong factual claim? More likely, the vast majority of people have never experienced living in a walkable neighborhood, and can't imagine the benefits it confers, and so do not (literally cannot) consider that option. This reinforces the point I made above -- people's desires are shaped by the level of exposure to various ideas and experiences. > a small house in a walkable area You mean all those that are already owned, and for which there is no more space available in cities? This is an imaginary alternative that has no basis in contemporary reality, unless you wish to build an entirely new metro area. Not to belabor the point too much, but obviously this is the wrong direction re: walkability. The geometry of the situation simply doesn't make sense when you can only fit an average of 3-4 people on lots each of minimum 10k sq ft. Walkability and density are highly correlated. > house + long commute to anything, I'd do the commute every single time Everyone I know who grew up in these kinds of living situations (especially ones with such domineering parents who impose their own preferences for housing instead of considering the factors important for early-life development) have pretty severe social deficits now. Your kids would spend all their time in front of screens while at home because there's literally nothing else to do when your parents are busy. If you don't have kids and you live in a single-family home, you're, objectively speaking, wasting space, unless you regularly open your home to others for events.
pandaman 4y ago
Immigrants then should have been overjoyed with Americans goaded into undesirable SFH, leaving the prime apartments for them to grab on the cheap? As an immigrant myself I don't find apartment living appealing, neither do any my immigrant friends.
- uoaei 4y ago
  People leave bad apartments before they leave good ones. If someone likes living in their apartment why would they leave it? If they don't leave good apartments, why would you assume there are more available?
  - pandaman 4y ago
    Oh, you mean Americans move to SFHs because of prestige and peer pressure but keep living secretly in their old apartment, setting timers and "tied up" cars in their empty detached homes? Sneaky!

by uoaei 4y ago

salawat 4y ago

>But choices can be unmade as easily as they are made. ...Do...do you even program? Or build? Because that right there tells me that you've never, ever been realistically engaged with a long term decision with long tails (read: other people that aren't you as stakeholders, or strings of dependent decisions). There is nothing more permanent than a temporary stopgap, and bells that can be unrung are exceedingly rare, and never ever trivial to implement.

uoaei 4y ago
Choices come before, and are distinct from, actions.

buscoquadnary 4y ago

I wanted one because having to deal with other people that I share walls with freaking sucks. You constantly stress that your neighbors are going to come down and yell at you because your kid is throwing a tantrum, you have to deal with your idiot neighbors downstairs screaming and yelling at each other till 2 in the morning. If you have a newborn baby you are plauged by the constant fear that your neighbors are going to be too loud and wake the baby up. So no it isn't just a status or American dream option it's a significant change in quality of life. It seems like too many of these discussions on HN consider only young single people and they just ignore that many people have families and children they need to keep around all the time.

rsaz 4y ago
I don't think anyone is advocating for only apartments and condos. If you have a family, can afford a car, and are willing to make compromises to be in a single-family home, that should absolutely be an option. Adding multi-family homes just adds a new, cheaper option that increases density. There are lots of benefits to it, and its really reductive to say "The 'missing middle' is bad because I wouldn't want to live like that".
- frumper 4y ago
  Where do you add the multi-family homes? I don't see a lot of unused real estate in the cities I've been to.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    I don't know how you can tell what is unused real estate vs vacant-but-owned real estate from the outside. I also don't know how you can see into the 30-something-story windows of high-rise luxury condos to determine whether or not they are being used.
    - pandaman 4y ago
      It's pretty easy to tell by cars in the driveways and lights in the windows.
      - uoaei 4y ago
        No, it's not. Lights are often on timers and cars are often tied to houses for those with second homes in different locations, so as to make them appear occupied so squatters and thieves are discouraged from entering while the owners are elsewhere. These are obvious considerations and I am surprised they did not cross your mind.
        pandaman 4y ago
        I see, so there is some kind of service that drives a car to and from a house and/or keeps the car parked but washes it regularly or every investor DIY this? How often does it happen you recon?

dominotw 4y ago

>1. Not being introduced to the breadth of options that are available Pretty sure most americans have experience living in apartments before they buy. I am just too old now to live below a toddler who decides 3 am is a good time to burn some calories running around. It has nothing to do with 'status' , i just want peace and a good night of sleep. I don't agree with your analysis that people don't want to live in dense house because of they are brainwashed with "american dream"

kory 4y ago

Sorry, I don't buy that either. Single family homes are objectively nicer in many ways. Some, like mine, are even in very walkable neighborhoods. I've lived in apartments and houses, and I'd take the house every single time. That's not because I grew up in a house, either. I hated housework as a kid and the family thought I'd be a downtown condo dweller until I actually wanted to buy a house. The vast majority of people do not care about walkability. Maybe that's because they grew up without it--even given that, you can't seriously tell me the vast majority of people would pick the "missing middle" over a small house in a walkable area given the choice. If I was forced to pick between walkable + apartment or house + long commute to anything, I'd do the commute every single time.

rsaz 4y ago
There are lots of comments here talking about how living in a single-family home is nicer than a condo, and while I generally agree, it doesn't mean we shouldn't build apartments and condos. A variety of options is good and people look for different things in a living space. If I was forced to pick between walkable + apartment or house + long commute to anything, I'd do the apartment every single time. Especially since it would likely be cheaper.
uoaei 4y ago
> The vast majority of people do not care about walkability. Wow, such authority. Sources for this strong factual claim? More likely, the vast majority of people have never experienced living in a walkable neighborhood, and can't imagine the benefits it confers, and so do not (literally cannot) consider that option. This reinforces the point I made above -- people's desires are shaped by the level of exposure to various ideas and experiences. > a small house in a walkable area You mean all those that are already owned, and for which there is no more space available in cities? This is an imaginary alternative that has no basis in contemporary reality, unless you wish to build an entirely new metro area. Not to belabor the point too much, but obviously this is the wrong direction re: walkability. The geometry of the situation simply doesn't make sense when you can only fit an average of 3-4 people on lots each of minimum 10k sq ft. Walkability and density are highly correlated. > house + long commute to anything, I'd do the commute every single time Everyone I know who grew up in these kinds of living situations (especially ones with such domineering parents who impose their own preferences for housing instead of considering the factors important for early-life development) have pretty severe social deficits now. Your kids would spend all their time in front of screens while at home because there's literally nothing else to do when your parents are busy. If you don't have kids and you live in a single-family home, you're, objectively speaking, wasting space, unless you regularly open your home to others for events.

pandaman 4y ago

Immigrants then should have been overjoyed with Americans goaded into undesirable SFH, leaving the prime apartments for them to grab on the cheap? As an immigrant myself I don't find apartment living appealing, neither do any my immigrant friends.

uoaei 4y ago
People leave bad apartments before they leave good ones. If someone likes living in their apartment why would they leave it? If they don't leave good apartments, why would you assume there are more available?
- pandaman 4y ago
  Oh, you mean Americans move to SFHs because of prestige and peer pressure but keep living secretly in their old apartment, setting timers and "tied up" cars in their empty detached homes? Sneaky!