5 ms·

I don't buy that Americans on average actually want to live in the "missing middle". They want a small detached house. Lower income folks were able to afford sm

by kory 4y ago

I don't buy that Americans on average actually want to live in the "missing middle". They want a small detached house. Lower income folks were able to afford small detached houses for nearly half of the 20th century. The recent push for "missing middle" housing is a coping mechanism for the fact that most of our population just can't live as well as it did only a generation ago. The solution is to spread out from concentrated megacities. Overcrowding happens in cycles historically, and every time it happens it's bad for human health and the health of human society. Everyone wants the space of a single family home and the slew of "modern amenities" a city offers, while lamenting they can't afford it. Our parents and their parents lived in far out areas that were cheap / semirural at time of purchase and matured to very nice places to live over decades of hard work put in by the local community. Of course those well-built-up areas are expensive, and of course the people that created those communities don't want to see them completely changed by density. We just need to build more opportunities like these, and people need to be willing to sacrifice on location at the start to see the area build up around them over time.

uoaei 4y ago
As with the vast majority of consumer preferences it is a combination of: 1. Not being introduced to the breadth of options that are available 2. Being told, or else insinuated to, that certain options represent higher status or achievement than others Americans want small detached houses because the ubiquity of the social construct known as "the American dream" drilled it into everyone's heads from the postwar period onward. Sitcoms through the television era both represented and reinforced this ideal. But choices can be unmade as easily as they are made.
- salawat 4y ago
  >But choices can be unmade as easily as they are made. ...Do...do you even program? Or build? Because that right there tells me that you've never, ever been realistically engaged with a long term decision with long tails (read: other people that aren't you as stakeholders, or strings of dependent decisions). There is nothing more permanent than a temporary stopgap, and bells that can be unrung are exceedingly rare, and never ever trivial to implement.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    Choices come before, and are distinct from, actions.
- buscoquadnary 4y ago
  I wanted one because having to deal with other people that I share walls with freaking sucks. You constantly stress that your neighbors are going to come down and yell at you because your kid is throwing a tantrum, you have to deal with your idiot neighbors downstairs screaming and yelling at each other till 2 in the morning. If you have a newborn baby you are plauged by the constant fear that your neighbors are going to be too loud and wake the baby up. So no it isn't just a status or American dream option it's a significant change in quality of life. It seems like too many of these discussions on HN consider only young single people and they just ignore that many people have families and children they need to keep around all the time.
  - rsaz 4y ago
    I don't think anyone is advocating for only apartments and condos. If you have a family, can afford a car, and are willing to make compromises to be in a single-family home, that should absolutely be an option. Adding multi-family homes just adds a new, cheaper option that increases density. There are lots of benefits to it, and its really reductive to say "The 'missing middle' is bad because I wouldn't want to live like that".
    - frumper 4y ago
      Where do you add the multi-family homes? I don't see a lot of unused real estate in the cities I've been to.
      - uoaei 4y ago
        I don't know how you can tell what is unused real estate vs vacant-but-owned real estate from the outside. I also don't know how you can see into the 30-something-story windows of high-rise luxury condos to determine whether or not they are being used.
        pandaman 4y ago
        It's pretty easy to tell by cars in the driveways and lights in the windows.
- dominotw 4y ago
  >1. Not being introduced to the breadth of options that are available Pretty sure most americans have experience living in apartments before they buy. I am just too old now to live below a toddler who decides 3 am is a good time to burn some calories running around. It has nothing to do with 'status' , i just want peace and a good night of sleep. I don't agree with your analysis that people don't want to live in dense house because of they are brainwashed with "american dream"
- kory 4y ago
  Sorry, I don't buy that either. Single family homes are objectively nicer in many ways. Some, like mine, are even in very walkable neighborhoods. I've lived in apartments and houses, and I'd take the house every single time. That's not because I grew up in a house, either. I hated housework as a kid and the family thought I'd be a downtown condo dweller until I actually wanted to buy a house. The vast majority of people do not care about walkability. Maybe that's because they grew up without it--even given that, you can't seriously tell me the vast majority of people would pick the "missing middle" over a small house in a walkable area given the choice. If I was forced to pick between walkable + apartment or house + long commute to anything, I'd do the commute every single time.
  - rsaz 4y ago
    There are lots of comments here talking about how living in a single-family home is nicer than a condo, and while I generally agree, it doesn't mean we shouldn't build apartments and condos. A variety of options is good and people look for different things in a living space. If I was forced to pick between walkable + apartment or house + long commute to anything, I'd do the apartment every single time. Especially since it would likely be cheaper.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    > The vast majority of people do not care about walkability. Wow, such authority. Sources for this strong factual claim? More likely, the vast majority of people have never experienced living in a walkable neighborhood, and can't imagine the benefits it confers, and so do not (literally cannot) consider that option. This reinforces the point I made above -- people's desires are shaped by the level of exposure to various ideas and experiences. > a small house in a walkable area You mean all those that are already owned, and for which there is no more space available in cities? This is an imaginary alternative that has no basis in contemporary reality, unless you wish to build an entirely new metro area. Not to belabor the point too much, but obviously this is the wrong direction re: walkability. The geometry of the situation simply doesn't make sense when you can only fit an average of 3-4 people on lots each of minimum 10k sq ft. Walkability and density are highly correlated. > house + long commute to anything, I'd do the commute every single time Everyone I know who grew up in these kinds of living situations (especially ones with such domineering parents who impose their own preferences for housing instead of considering the factors important for early-life development) have pretty severe social deficits now. Your kids would spend all their time in front of screens while at home because there's literally nothing else to do when your parents are busy. If you don't have kids and you live in a single-family home, you're, objectively speaking, wasting space, unless you regularly open your home to others for events.
- pandaman 4y ago
  Immigrants then should have been overjoyed with Americans goaded into undesirable SFH, leaving the prime apartments for them to grab on the cheap? As an immigrant myself I don't find apartment living appealing, neither do any my immigrant friends.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    People leave bad apartments before they leave good ones. If someone likes living in their apartment why would they leave it? If they don't leave good apartments, why would you assume there are more available?
    - pandaman 4y ago
      Oh, you mean Americans move to SFHs because of prestige and peer pressure but keep living secretly in their old apartment, setting timers and "tied up" cars in their empty detached homes? Sneaky!
nineplay 4y ago
I don't know why you're getting downvoted unless it doesn't fit what some posters want to hear. People don't like sharing walls, they don't like sharing sewer systems, they don't like having to negotiate paint colors and maintenance of common areas. The people who own condos, IME, are using it as a stopgap - often families waiting for a point where a SAH spouse gets a job or a parent finishes post-grad schooling. All of them see owning a detached house as their end-goal.
- kory 4y ago
  There is a very zealous nature to pro-density advocates online. I appreciate the passion of these people, but I admit I very much find solace that all people people I know in the physical world don’t feel the same way. Which, I suppose, is why single family zoning continues to live on. It’s the nicest way to live for many people.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    This is true, but then you'll also have to deal with the negative externalities such as traffic, car costs (I think I read here that the median car cost was like $48,000 now?) high gas prices, traffic fatalities, road maintenance (higher taxes), and political unrest since people won't be able to afford to live in homes. But going back to the pro-density thing. I think what is misunderstood is that most people arguing for more density aren't arguing for everyone to live in Manhattan - that's a big problem too. They're advocating for mixed-use, medium density walkable neighborhoods. These neighborhoods would include single family homes with yards and sidewalks, but also cafes, elementary schools, gyms, grocery stores, bars, and office space too. You wouldn't have to drive a car everywhere but obviously you could own as many as you'd like. This would also help the local economy because you can pay a barista that lives in your neighborhood (maybe in a townhouse or a condo while they attend college) instead of a rubber manufacturer 4 states away.
    - kory 4y ago
      > This is true, but then you'll also have to deal with the negative externalities such as traffic, car costs (I think I read here that the median car cost was like $48,000 now?) high gas prices, traffic fatalities, road maintenance (higher taxes) Society has already decided that these costs are well worth it for the value of living in suburbia > and political unrest since people won't be able to afford to live in homes. It's debatable whether it's the need for a detached house that makes housing unaffordable outside of city cores. Again, the solution is to decentralize. > They're advocating for mixed-use, medium density walkable neighborhoods. Great, but they love to select their desired area then try to force changes on existing residents that purchased a home in the area for a suburban feel. That's the concern people have. Nobody would mind if density advocates founded a new jurisdiction to build a place like this.
pchristensen 4y ago
While overwhelming numbers of people want a detached house, revealed preferences in the housing market show that people are more than willing to live in a townhouse or condo at the right price. Most people are choosing between a more affordable attached unit closer to where they want to live, or a detached unit farther away. Today's Slow Boring newsletter (https://www.slowboring.com/p/a-bold-agenda-for-dc-housing https://www.slowboring.com/p/a-bold-agenda-for-dc-housing) explained the numbers pretty well: But the factual situation is pretty clear: (1) Dense, walkable neighborhoods feature very high home prices, indicating a large amount of unmet demand for high-density living. (2) Surveys show clearly that a majority of Americans prefer to live in auto-oriented suburbs and do not want to live in dense, walkable neighborhoods. The way to resolve this apparent paradox is to note: (3) Currently only a tiny minority of Americans live in dense, walkable neighborhoods.

by kory 4y ago

uoaei 4y ago

As with the vast majority of consumer preferences it is a combination of: 1. Not being introduced to the breadth of options that are available 2. Being told, or else insinuated to, that certain options represent higher status or achievement than others Americans want small detached houses because the ubiquity of the social construct known as "the American dream" drilled it into everyone's heads from the postwar period onward. Sitcoms through the television era both represented and reinforced this ideal. But choices can be unmade as easily as they are made.

salawat 4y ago
>But choices can be unmade as easily as they are made. ...Do...do you even program? Or build? Because that right there tells me that you've never, ever been realistically engaged with a long term decision with long tails (read: other people that aren't you as stakeholders, or strings of dependent decisions). There is nothing more permanent than a temporary stopgap, and bells that can be unrung are exceedingly rare, and never ever trivial to implement.
- uoaei 4y ago
  Choices come before, and are distinct from, actions.
buscoquadnary 4y ago
I wanted one because having to deal with other people that I share walls with freaking sucks. You constantly stress that your neighbors are going to come down and yell at you because your kid is throwing a tantrum, you have to deal with your idiot neighbors downstairs screaming and yelling at each other till 2 in the morning. If you have a newborn baby you are plauged by the constant fear that your neighbors are going to be too loud and wake the baby up. So no it isn't just a status or American dream option it's a significant change in quality of life. It seems like too many of these discussions on HN consider only young single people and they just ignore that many people have families and children they need to keep around all the time.
- rsaz 4y ago
  I don't think anyone is advocating for only apartments and condos. If you have a family, can afford a car, and are willing to make compromises to be in a single-family home, that should absolutely be an option. Adding multi-family homes just adds a new, cheaper option that increases density. There are lots of benefits to it, and its really reductive to say "The 'missing middle' is bad because I wouldn't want to live like that".
  - frumper 4y ago
    Where do you add the multi-family homes? I don't see a lot of unused real estate in the cities I've been to.
    - uoaei 4y ago
      I don't know how you can tell what is unused real estate vs vacant-but-owned real estate from the outside. I also don't know how you can see into the 30-something-story windows of high-rise luxury condos to determine whether or not they are being used.
      - pandaman 4y ago
        It's pretty easy to tell by cars in the driveways and lights in the windows.
dominotw 4y ago
>1. Not being introduced to the breadth of options that are available Pretty sure most americans have experience living in apartments before they buy. I am just too old now to live below a toddler who decides 3 am is a good time to burn some calories running around. It has nothing to do with 'status' , i just want peace and a good night of sleep. I don't agree with your analysis that people don't want to live in dense house because of they are brainwashed with "american dream"
kory 4y ago
Sorry, I don't buy that either. Single family homes are objectively nicer in many ways. Some, like mine, are even in very walkable neighborhoods. I've lived in apartments and houses, and I'd take the house every single time. That's not because I grew up in a house, either. I hated housework as a kid and the family thought I'd be a downtown condo dweller until I actually wanted to buy a house. The vast majority of people do not care about walkability. Maybe that's because they grew up without it--even given that, you can't seriously tell me the vast majority of people would pick the "missing middle" over a small house in a walkable area given the choice. If I was forced to pick between walkable + apartment or house + long commute to anything, I'd do the commute every single time.
- rsaz 4y ago
  There are lots of comments here talking about how living in a single-family home is nicer than a condo, and while I generally agree, it doesn't mean we shouldn't build apartments and condos. A variety of options is good and people look for different things in a living space. If I was forced to pick between walkable + apartment or house + long commute to anything, I'd do the apartment every single time. Especially since it would likely be cheaper.
- uoaei 4y ago
  > The vast majority of people do not care about walkability. Wow, such authority. Sources for this strong factual claim? More likely, the vast majority of people have never experienced living in a walkable neighborhood, and can't imagine the benefits it confers, and so do not (literally cannot) consider that option. This reinforces the point I made above -- people's desires are shaped by the level of exposure to various ideas and experiences. > a small house in a walkable area You mean all those that are already owned, and for which there is no more space available in cities? This is an imaginary alternative that has no basis in contemporary reality, unless you wish to build an entirely new metro area. Not to belabor the point too much, but obviously this is the wrong direction re: walkability. The geometry of the situation simply doesn't make sense when you can only fit an average of 3-4 people on lots each of minimum 10k sq ft. Walkability and density are highly correlated. > house + long commute to anything, I'd do the commute every single time Everyone I know who grew up in these kinds of living situations (especially ones with such domineering parents who impose their own preferences for housing instead of considering the factors important for early-life development) have pretty severe social deficits now. Your kids would spend all their time in front of screens while at home because there's literally nothing else to do when your parents are busy. If you don't have kids and you live in a single-family home, you're, objectively speaking, wasting space, unless you regularly open your home to others for events.
pandaman 4y ago
Immigrants then should have been overjoyed with Americans goaded into undesirable SFH, leaving the prime apartments for them to grab on the cheap? As an immigrant myself I don't find apartment living appealing, neither do any my immigrant friends.
- uoaei 4y ago
  People leave bad apartments before they leave good ones. If someone likes living in their apartment why would they leave it? If they don't leave good apartments, why would you assume there are more available?
  - pandaman 4y ago
    Oh, you mean Americans move to SFHs because of prestige and peer pressure but keep living secretly in their old apartment, setting timers and "tied up" cars in their empty detached homes? Sneaky!

nineplay 4y ago

I don't know why you're getting downvoted unless it doesn't fit what some posters want to hear. People don't like sharing walls, they don't like sharing sewer systems, they don't like having to negotiate paint colors and maintenance of common areas. The people who own condos, IME, are using it as a stopgap - often families waiting for a point where a SAH spouse gets a job or a parent finishes post-grad schooling. All of them see owning a detached house as their end-goal.

kory 4y ago
There is a very zealous nature to pro-density advocates online. I appreciate the passion of these people, but I admit I very much find solace that all people people I know in the physical world don’t feel the same way. Which, I suppose, is why single family zoning continues to live on. It’s the nicest way to live for many people.
- ericmay 4y ago
  This is true, but then you'll also have to deal with the negative externalities such as traffic, car costs (I think I read here that the median car cost was like $48,000 now?) high gas prices, traffic fatalities, road maintenance (higher taxes), and political unrest since people won't be able to afford to live in homes. But going back to the pro-density thing. I think what is misunderstood is that most people arguing for more density aren't arguing for everyone to live in Manhattan - that's a big problem too. They're advocating for mixed-use, medium density walkable neighborhoods. These neighborhoods would include single family homes with yards and sidewalks, but also cafes, elementary schools, gyms, grocery stores, bars, and office space too. You wouldn't have to drive a car everywhere but obviously you could own as many as you'd like. This would also help the local economy because you can pay a barista that lives in your neighborhood (maybe in a townhouse or a condo while they attend college) instead of a rubber manufacturer 4 states away.
  - kory 4y ago
    > This is true, but then you'll also have to deal with the negative externalities such as traffic, car costs (I think I read here that the median car cost was like $48,000 now?) high gas prices, traffic fatalities, road maintenance (higher taxes) Society has already decided that these costs are well worth it for the value of living in suburbia > and political unrest since people won't be able to afford to live in homes. It's debatable whether it's the need for a detached house that makes housing unaffordable outside of city cores. Again, the solution is to decentralize. > They're advocating for mixed-use, medium density walkable neighborhoods. Great, but they love to select their desired area then try to force changes on existing residents that purchased a home in the area for a suburban feel. That's the concern people have. Nobody would mind if density advocates founded a new jurisdiction to build a place like this.

pchristensen 4y ago

While overwhelming numbers of people want a detached house, revealed preferences in the housing market show that people are more than willing to live in a townhouse or condo at the right price. Most people are choosing between a more affordable attached unit closer to where they want to live, or a detached unit farther away. Today's Slow Boring newsletter (https://www.slowboring.com/p/a-bold-agenda-for-dc-housing https://www.slowboring.com/p/a-bold-agenda-for-dc-housing) explained the numbers pretty well: But the factual situation is pretty clear: (1) Dense, walkable neighborhoods feature very high home prices, indicating a large amount of unmet demand for high-density living. (2) Surveys show clearly that a majority of Americans prefer to live in auto-oriented suburbs and do not want to live in dense, walkable neighborhoods. The way to resolve this apparent paradox is to note: (3) Currently only a tiny minority of Americans live in dense, walkable neighborhoods.