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> It's frustrating that programmers want to redefine civil time just because it is "hard". This article glosses over the real world problems that detaching from

> It's frustrating that programmers want to redefine civil time just because it is "hard". This article glosses over the real world problems that detaching from UTC will cause. I agree, but I'm also - sad to say - less than surprised to find engineers at a Big Tech firm taking a high-handed, not to mention narrow and ill-informed, approach over the issue and trying to impose their will on a global scale. My worry here is that, Meta being Meta, they carry quite a lot of influence and may actually gain some traction. EDIT: I'll add a bit more colour here. At the core of our platform we manage a database containing billions of legacy timestamped records (or events, if you prefer), adding more and more every day. Without even giving it a great deal of thought I guarantee you that this proposal will cause us more problems that it solves and will distract us from making more valuable investments of time and effort that would benefit our business should it be implemented. Sure, we can no doubt fix all these problems, but we've got better things to do. I imagine that many other businesses would be similarly affected and would take a similar view. I wholeheartedly oppose it.

gnu8 4y ago
That’s all it is, they ran into an engineering problem and they’re trying to get the world to bend to their will instead of solving the problem because they think it will be easier. Mark’s arrogance is nauseating.
- easytiger 4y ago
  Now expand this reasoning far beyond the scope of time keeping. Big Tech companies/Anti Big Tech lobbyists massively oversimplify in their pitch to influential people to deregulate/overregulate certain areas. In both cases they end up making poor decisions for the general case both end up making the average case worse for everyone except themselves. It's about creating a market where none need exist. Facebook doesn't need to care about time really. It's not remotely important to their business. I've built and worked on platforms with sub microsecond measuring requirements and this stuff didn't bother me. This is idle bad money finding work for itself at the expense of everyone else. Disclosure: I am/was an early investor in facebook in 2012. Mark is turning it all to dirt because he's run out of ideas
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  > arrogance is nauseating Right back atcha. We have three alternative time systems and a big bag of issues with each of them, but you think the extremely mundane argument that we should prefer one bag represents nauseating arrogance because you think that your favorite bag -- a different one -- is obviously correct? Come on. Do better. Be civil.
  - Veserv 4y ago
    FB is not making the mundane argument that we should pick one time system over another. They are literally proposing that the world should redefine UTC to be TAI with a permanent fixed offset, which is functionally equivalent to just using TAI. That is effectively proposing the deletion of the most commonly used time system of the three primary time systems from existence and forcing everybody and all existing systems that use it to convert to what is effectively TAI. That is not mundane. Mundane is arguing that everybody should use TAI. Arrogant is arguing that we should force everyone to do it by redefining their dependencies under them.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      That is the smallest change that eliminates all the pain. Arrogant is imposing a big nuisance on everyone every year or two. It is not arrogant to ask for a nuisance affecting millions to be dropped.
      - Veserv 4y ago
        No, it is a change that breaks everybody using UTC correctly, TAI with a offset to synchronize with UT1, in order to fix everybody who did not know what they were doing and used UTC when they actually wanted TAI. If there was a scheme that fixed only the wrong usages, that would be fine. But, it is frankly absurd that we should even consider breaking carefully designed programs correctly using their dependencies to fix programs incorrectly using their dependencies especially when it is trivial for the wrong usages to be fixed manually.
        4y ago
corrral 4y ago
I'm kinda impressed by the hubris, really. Usually it's emperors, kings, and big multinational governing bodies that try to screw around with the time standard that ordinary people have to live with. Occasionally strident revolutionaries who've already solved the "overthrow and replace the government" part of their problem and aren't content with just beheading people all day. Says something about how Facebook sees itself, I guess.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Facebook is arguing to stop monkeying with the time Standard. Correctly. Leap seconds are exactly the "screwing around" you criticize.
  - LeoPanthera 4y ago
    Leap seconds are added because the Earth is slowing down. Are you angry at celestial mechanics?
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      I totally don't care about the Earth slowing down. Nobody does except astronomers. Computers don't need to know.
      - thrown_22 4y ago
        >Your honor the nuclear attack on San Fransisco happened at 10.59.59 as per UTC-Facebook time and is as such part of WWIII and not a violation of the armistice.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        By "UTC-Facebook" time, you of course mean UTC time, the time everybody already uses, and that has no need to be broken every year, two years, or three years, and wouldn't be broken at all if we simply stopped breaking it.

gnu8 4y ago

That’s all it is, they ran into an engineering problem and they’re trying to get the world to bend to their will instead of solving the problem because they think it will be easier. Mark’s arrogance is nauseating.

easytiger 4y ago
Now expand this reasoning far beyond the scope of time keeping. Big Tech companies/Anti Big Tech lobbyists massively oversimplify in their pitch to influential people to deregulate/overregulate certain areas. In both cases they end up making poor decisions for the general case both end up making the average case worse for everyone except themselves. It's about creating a market where none need exist. Facebook doesn't need to care about time really. It's not remotely important to their business. I've built and worked on platforms with sub microsecond measuring requirements and this stuff didn't bother me. This is idle bad money finding work for itself at the expense of everyone else. Disclosure: I am/was an early investor in facebook in 2012. Mark is turning it all to dirt because he's run out of ideas
jjoonathan 4y ago
> arrogance is nauseating Right back atcha. We have three alternative time systems and a big bag of issues with each of them, but you think the extremely mundane argument that we should prefer one bag represents nauseating arrogance because you think that your favorite bag -- a different one -- is obviously correct? Come on. Do better. Be civil.
- Veserv 4y ago
  FB is not making the mundane argument that we should pick one time system over another. They are literally proposing that the world should redefine UTC to be TAI with a permanent fixed offset, which is functionally equivalent to just using TAI. That is effectively proposing the deletion of the most commonly used time system of the three primary time systems from existence and forcing everybody and all existing systems that use it to convert to what is effectively TAI. That is not mundane. Mundane is arguing that everybody should use TAI. Arrogant is arguing that we should force everyone to do it by redefining their dependencies under them.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    That is the smallest change that eliminates all the pain. Arrogant is imposing a big nuisance on everyone every year or two. It is not arrogant to ask for a nuisance affecting millions to be dropped.
    - Veserv 4y ago
      No, it is a change that breaks everybody using UTC correctly, TAI with a offset to synchronize with UT1, in order to fix everybody who did not know what they were doing and used UTC when they actually wanted TAI. If there was a scheme that fixed only the wrong usages, that would be fine. But, it is frankly absurd that we should even consider breaking carefully designed programs correctly using their dependencies to fix programs incorrectly using their dependencies especially when it is trivial for the wrong usages to be fixed manually.
      - 4y ago

corrral 4y ago

I'm kinda impressed by the hubris, really. Usually it's emperors, kings, and big multinational governing bodies that try to screw around with the time standard that ordinary people have to live with. Occasionally strident revolutionaries who've already solved the "overthrow and replace the government" part of their problem and aren't content with just beheading people all day. Says something about how Facebook sees itself, I guess.

ncmncm 4y ago
Facebook is arguing to stop monkeying with the time Standard. Correctly. Leap seconds are exactly the "screwing around" you criticize.
- LeoPanthera 4y ago
  Leap seconds are added because the Earth is slowing down. Are you angry at celestial mechanics?
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    I totally don't care about the Earth slowing down. Nobody does except astronomers. Computers don't need to know.
    - thrown_22 4y ago
      >Your honor the nuclear attack on San Fransisco happened at 10.59.59 as per UTC-Facebook time and is as such part of WWIII and not a violation of the armistice.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        By "UTC-Facebook" time, you of course mean UTC time, the time everybody already uses, and that has no need to be broken every year, two years, or three years, and wouldn't be broken at all if we simply stopped breaking it.