5 ms·

I have a lot of respect for carmack but this sentiment is very tone-deaf. Maybe he doesn't experience the web and real life the same as me, I don't know. But ho

by mola 4y ago

I have a lot of respect for carmack but this sentiment is very tone-deaf. Maybe he doesn't experience the web and real life the same as me, I don't know. But honestly I don't see any problem of not knowing about new valuable stuff, I DO see a problem of knowing about every inane fake scammy deceitful manipulative useless thing without wanting to.

ketzo 4y ago
Wait — you don’t see any problem not knowing about valuable stuff? If your product offered a 5x better way to do something, but nobody knew about it, wouldn’t you be a little frustrated for both yourself and them?
- powerhour 4y ago
  Are there any good examples of 5x products you've learned about through marketing efforts (and not, say, trusted colleagues)? I can't think of one.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - themacguffinman 4y ago
    How do you think your trusted colleagues originally found out about the stuff they recommend you? Even if they searched for it, SEO is marketing too (no doubt the search engine listing would be a marketing optimized webpage). I'm pretty sure I found out about FreeTaxUSA through ads. The HN submissions for Notion seemed promotional to me and it's how I found out about it, I'd also struggle to think of how Notion would have been discovered if a marketing or sales team did not make efforts to spread mentions of it. GitLab markets pretty aggressively on HN (or at least they used to) which is how I found out about it too.
    - permo-w 4y ago
      >How do you think your trusted colleagues originally found out about the stuff they recommend you? probably youtube or a course of some variety. the only times I ever gain anything from advertising is adverts for new series of tv shows
      - golergka 4y ago
        > probably youtube or a course of some variety Which is marketing.
        permo-w 4y ago
        not really
      - themacguffinman 4y ago
        Then how did the YouTuber or course creator originally hear about the product? Unless a technology is already well known from other marketing channels, it's unlikely that unaffiliated people will just magically know about a new product.
        jackvalentine 4y ago
        Are you really so unimaginative that you’re going to follow the trail and at every point say “but surely THIS is where the marketing occurs!” without considering alternatives?
    - powerhour 4y ago
      > How do you think your trusted colleagues originally found out about the stuff they recommend you? Probably other colleagues. I've been doing this a long time and the only 5x tools I can think of are things like git and Linux (if it counts as a tool), which probably didn't have much marketing behind them. Maybe IRC? It may have been 5x better than the BBSs I was using. Tools like Notion seem to be more like 1x or maybe 1.1x compared to plain text files or Google Keep (which itself is also incremental).
  - ketzo 4y ago
    Easiest example is my iPhone. 5x is an understatement. Frankly, 500x probably is too. And there is exactly zero chance that I and everyone I know would have bought them (back in the day) without Apple’s marketing.
- EddieDante 4y ago
  It doesn't matter how good the product is if I'm not getting paid enough to be able to afford it. It's easy for John Carmack to see "incredible value all around"; he's a multimillionaire.
nickstinemates 4y ago
There's a lot of awesome stuff I don't know about, but I also hate being actively marketed to. My web preferences are HN and a select set of Subreddits (and where those point me.) I am glad because I tend to buy all of the shiny objects that catch my attention. On the other hand, there's a lot of cool things I am missing out on because of my lack of engagement on more things that just my very focused hobbies.

by mola 4y ago

ketzo 4y ago

Wait — you don’t see any problem not knowing about valuable stuff? If your product offered a 5x better way to do something, but nobody knew about it, wouldn’t you be a little frustrated for both yourself and them?

powerhour 4y ago
Are there any good examples of 5x products you've learned about through marketing efforts (and not, say, trusted colleagues)? I can't think of one.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- themacguffinman 4y ago
  How do you think your trusted colleagues originally found out about the stuff they recommend you? Even if they searched for it, SEO is marketing too (no doubt the search engine listing would be a marketing optimized webpage). I'm pretty sure I found out about FreeTaxUSA through ads. The HN submissions for Notion seemed promotional to me and it's how I found out about it, I'd also struggle to think of how Notion would have been discovered if a marketing or sales team did not make efforts to spread mentions of it. GitLab markets pretty aggressively on HN (or at least they used to) which is how I found out about it too.
  - permo-w 4y ago
    >How do you think your trusted colleagues originally found out about the stuff they recommend you? probably youtube or a course of some variety. the only times I ever gain anything from advertising is adverts for new series of tv shows
    - golergka 4y ago
      > probably youtube or a course of some variety Which is marketing.
      - permo-w 4y ago
        not really
    - themacguffinman 4y ago
      Then how did the YouTuber or course creator originally hear about the product? Unless a technology is already well known from other marketing channels, it's unlikely that unaffiliated people will just magically know about a new product.
      - jackvalentine 4y ago
        Are you really so unimaginative that you’re going to follow the trail and at every point say “but surely THIS is where the marketing occurs!” without considering alternatives?
  - powerhour 4y ago
    > How do you think your trusted colleagues originally found out about the stuff they recommend you? Probably other colleagues. I've been doing this a long time and the only 5x tools I can think of are things like git and Linux (if it counts as a tool), which probably didn't have much marketing behind them. Maybe IRC? It may have been 5x better than the BBSs I was using. Tools like Notion seem to be more like 1x or maybe 1.1x compared to plain text files or Google Keep (which itself is also incremental).
- ketzo 4y ago
  Easiest example is my iPhone. 5x is an understatement. Frankly, 500x probably is too. And there is exactly zero chance that I and everyone I know would have bought them (back in the day) without Apple’s marketing.
EddieDante 4y ago
It doesn't matter how good the product is if I'm not getting paid enough to be able to afford it. It's easy for John Carmack to see "incredible value all around"; he's a multimillionaire.

nickstinemates 4y ago

There's a lot of awesome stuff I don't know about, but I also hate being actively marketed to. My web preferences are HN and a select set of Subreddits (and where those point me.) I am glad because I tend to buy all of the shiny objects that catch my attention. On the other hand, there's a lot of cool things I am missing out on because of my lack of engagement on more things that just my very focused hobbies.