4 ms·

I don't know, modern cars have longer and longer lifespans.

denimnerd42 4y ago
Do they? Modern cars are using 0W-20 or lower weight oils solely for MPG/emissions purposes and pushing service intervals on that oil to 1 year for cost of ownership purposes. Then many people are not in the habit of changing their oil due to such long intervals so make that 2 years. Compounding that modern cars tend to burn a small amount of oil due to low friction rings for MPG purposes. I don't think you get long engine life with that recipe. That's not even counting the type of fancy things they are engineering into their engines like turbos, special valves, selective cylinder ignition (reduce V8 to V6 or V4) All that stuff breaks before 100k. It's a modern miracle a turbo last just 100k miles. In the aughts and nineties the extra emission equipment (mostly gas tank vapor emissions) would break after 100k miles, but it wouldn't stop the engine from running. Now it's even crazier stuff that definitely will.
- verall 4y ago
  Oh come on my '12 Odyssey has all that stuff besides the turbo and is happily approaching 200k miles. I see older Odysseys like '04-'08 on the road approximately all of the time. That stuff does not "all break before 100k". It would be interesting to see MTBF info for these new features, complexity _is_ typically the enemy of reliability, but handwaving based on your feeling isn't it.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Prepare for a transmission failure. I have owned two Hondas and both had total transmission failures at that mileage. Neither were as new as '12 though, maybe the clutch packs were improved by then.
    - denimnerd42 4y ago
      Yeah 8/9/10 speed transmissions are another issue. So are CVTs
    - soupfordummies 4y ago
      Sounds like you were just very unlucky then :( I'm on at least my 3rd 200k+ Honda and only one of them ever had anything close to transmission issues (clutch went out). It could be because they were all manual transmissions however.
  - denimnerd42 4y ago
    I don't think your car from 10 years ago has all this stuff, plus it's a Honda. It's not my feeling. Just off the top of my head: See GM AFM lifter failure. See Kia/Hyundai engine failures. See direct injection carbon buildup on Lexus IS250. I could probably go on and on with some more research. I didn't even mention the transmission.. Nissan CVT is one of the worst but the Subaru CVT isn't even proven to 200k.
    - decafninja 4y ago
      2012 might be just on the cusp. Most cars from the 00's I'd put as being before this paradigm shift.
- runnerup 4y ago
  Motor oils are also getting better: https://www.mobil.com/xomfl/pvl/content/xom-annual-protection-v1.3.5/index.html https://www.mobil.com/xomfl/pvl/content/xom-annual-protectio... (Good for 1 full year or 20,000 miles, whichever comes first)
  - denimnerd42 4y ago
    Right. One of my points was that things you do once a year are difficult to make a habit. For a long time now synthetic oils have been good for 10 or 15k miles but people still had 3k or 5k intervals drilled into them so maybe once every few months was on their internal clock but once they actually took the time it ended up being twice or even once a year and that was actually fine.. But let's say the interval is now a year and you do it every 18 months? Is that fine? I don't know..
avgDev 4y ago
This is no longer true and there seems to be a regression in the length of the lifespan of the car, due to cost of repairs and other factors. The golden age for reliability was when we had significant manufacturing advancements and improvement in engine building with tighter tolerances but lack of all the tech. The problem is now with the tech, and average car owner has yet to realize just how expensive that tech is. Windshield replacement used to be $150, this is no longer the case. Now, if you have radar cruise control, it needs calibration. Some cars have acoustic glass, which is more expensive. The cars have sensors all over, minor crash results in thousands in damage. LED headlights are $2k a piece. Even Tesla, imagine the car is now 10 years old, worth $10k, is someone going to buy a new battery for $10k? There is going to be better tech out there and faster charging times. Additionally, look at cost of ownership of something like an S class, those things become cheaper than Accords after few years. The reason is that all that tech is hard to maintain and now some of it trickled down into the main stream cars.
- bityard 4y ago
  Don't get me started on low-profiles wheels. 3x more expensive tires and poor ride quality, all for just the bling factor. It's getting hard to find new cars that even leave the factory with standard wheels anymore.
bityard 4y ago
Not in the rust belt they don't! Better engineering and a desire for ever-higher fuel economy means that today's cars are made stronger than ever before (when new) but with less metal. Less metal means the frame is compromised more quickly by corrosion. All but one of my previous vehicles had engines and interiors that were perfectly fine at 200k miles but the frames and bodywork were so rusted out that the whole car was essentially a loss. Car manufacturers COULD design a far more rust-resistant car, and it wouldn't even be that hard or much more expensive. But of course when your business is pumping out millions of a thing, you don't have much incentive to engineer it to last longer.
- avgDev 4y ago
  I started spraying wool wax on the undercarriage of my car. 3 years in midwestern winters with salt and 0 rust on the underbody. Not a complete solution but helps, as I tend to keep cars for 10+ years.
  - pc86 4y ago
    Having just moved to the midwest, do you spray it everywhere or only in certain places?
    - avgDev 4y ago
      I remove the wheels, put bags over rotors/calipers and spray mostly everything except the exhaust and body panels. I don't drill holes in doors or anything like and don't spray inside them.
- pc86 4y ago
  Is it really a desire for "ever-higher fuel economy?" I would have no problem driving a 10mpg car that had character, didn't look like every other car on the road, or had some sort of unique value to it. But regulations are arbitrarily increasing fuel economy requirements which drives every car to use smaller engines, less powerful engines, and end up looking like a half-used cough drop. I think if manufacturers didn't have to waste time with that they would be willing to invest more in things people actually care about, rust resistance being one of them.

Do they? Modern cars are using 0W-20 or lower weight oils solely for MPG/emissions purposes and pushing service intervals on that oil to 1 year for cost of ownership purposes. Then many people are not in the habit of changing their oil due to such long intervals so make that 2 years. Compounding that modern cars tend to burn a small amount of oil due to low friction rings for MPG purposes. I don't think you get long engine life with that recipe. That's not even counting the type of fancy things they are engineering into their engines like turbos, special valves, selective cylinder ignition (reduce V8 to V6 or V4) All that stuff breaks before 100k. It's a modern miracle a turbo last just 100k miles. In the aughts and nineties the extra emission equipment (mostly gas tank vapor emissions) would break after 100k miles, but it wouldn't stop the engine from running. Now it's even crazier stuff that definitely will.

verall 4y ago
Oh come on my '12 Odyssey has all that stuff besides the turbo and is happily approaching 200k miles. I see older Odysseys like '04-'08 on the road approximately all of the time. That stuff does not "all break before 100k". It would be interesting to see MTBF info for these new features, complexity _is_ typically the enemy of reliability, but handwaving based on your feeling isn't it.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  Prepare for a transmission failure. I have owned two Hondas and both had total transmission failures at that mileage. Neither were as new as '12 though, maybe the clutch packs were improved by then.
  - denimnerd42 4y ago
    Yeah 8/9/10 speed transmissions are another issue. So are CVTs
  - soupfordummies 4y ago
    Sounds like you were just very unlucky then :( I'm on at least my 3rd 200k+ Honda and only one of them ever had anything close to transmission issues (clutch went out). It could be because they were all manual transmissions however.
- denimnerd42 4y ago
  I don't think your car from 10 years ago has all this stuff, plus it's a Honda. It's not my feeling. Just off the top of my head: See GM AFM lifter failure. See Kia/Hyundai engine failures. See direct injection carbon buildup on Lexus IS250. I could probably go on and on with some more research. I didn't even mention the transmission.. Nissan CVT is one of the worst but the Subaru CVT isn't even proven to 200k.
  - decafninja 4y ago
    2012 might be just on the cusp. Most cars from the 00's I'd put as being before this paradigm shift.
runnerup 4y ago
Motor oils are also getting better: https://www.mobil.com/xomfl/pvl/content/xom-annual-protection-v1.3.5/index.html https://www.mobil.com/xomfl/pvl/content/xom-annual-protectio... (Good for 1 full year or 20,000 miles, whichever comes first)
- denimnerd42 4y ago
  Right. One of my points was that things you do once a year are difficult to make a habit. For a long time now synthetic oils have been good for 10 or 15k miles but people still had 3k or 5k intervals drilled into them so maybe once every few months was on their internal clock but once they actually took the time it ended up being twice or even once a year and that was actually fine.. But let's say the interval is now a year and you do it every 18 months? Is that fine? I don't know..

avgDev 4y ago

This is no longer true and there seems to be a regression in the length of the lifespan of the car, due to cost of repairs and other factors. The golden age for reliability was when we had significant manufacturing advancements and improvement in engine building with tighter tolerances but lack of all the tech. The problem is now with the tech, and average car owner has yet to realize just how expensive that tech is. Windshield replacement used to be $150, this is no longer the case. Now, if you have radar cruise control, it needs calibration. Some cars have acoustic glass, which is more expensive. The cars have sensors all over, minor crash results in thousands in damage. LED headlights are $2k a piece. Even Tesla, imagine the car is now 10 years old, worth $10k, is someone going to buy a new battery for $10k? There is going to be better tech out there and faster charging times. Additionally, look at cost of ownership of something like an S class, those things become cheaper than Accords after few years. The reason is that all that tech is hard to maintain and now some of it trickled down into the main stream cars.

bityard 4y ago
Don't get me started on low-profiles wheels. 3x more expensive tires and poor ride quality, all for just the bling factor. It's getting hard to find new cars that even leave the factory with standard wheels anymore.

bityard 4y ago

Not in the rust belt they don't! Better engineering and a desire for ever-higher fuel economy means that today's cars are made stronger than ever before (when new) but with less metal. Less metal means the frame is compromised more quickly by corrosion. All but one of my previous vehicles had engines and interiors that were perfectly fine at 200k miles but the frames and bodywork were so rusted out that the whole car was essentially a loss. Car manufacturers COULD design a far more rust-resistant car, and it wouldn't even be that hard or much more expensive. But of course when your business is pumping out millions of a thing, you don't have much incentive to engineer it to last longer.

avgDev 4y ago
I started spraying wool wax on the undercarriage of my car. 3 years in midwestern winters with salt and 0 rust on the underbody. Not a complete solution but helps, as I tend to keep cars for 10+ years.
- pc86 4y ago
  Having just moved to the midwest, do you spray it everywhere or only in certain places?
  - avgDev 4y ago
    I remove the wheels, put bags over rotors/calipers and spray mostly everything except the exhaust and body panels. I don't drill holes in doors or anything like and don't spray inside them.
pc86 4y ago
Is it really a desire for "ever-higher fuel economy?" I would have no problem driving a 10mpg car that had character, didn't look like every other car on the road, or had some sort of unique value to it. But regulations are arbitrarily increasing fuel economy requirements which drives every car to use smaller engines, less powerful engines, and end up looking like a half-used cough drop. I think if manufacturers didn't have to waste time with that they would be willing to invest more in things people actually care about, rust resistance being one of them.