4 ms·

You touch a number of very important points here. Thanks for that. We're aware of the fact, that the overall situation in many countries in the world is much, m

You touch a number of very important points here. Thanks for that. We're aware of the fact, that the overall situation in many countries in the world is much, much worse. So it's kind of a luxury problem. What is actually a challenge, is that I work as a freelancer for 20 years now and still have to go a long way to secure my private pension. I once calculated my personal "real" tax rate in Germany, and ended up at around 71%. Especially due to the fact, that we both are in the highest income tax band but also due to the fact that there are taxes on close to everything. But since we're not really consume oriented, we're fine with lower income, IF we find a place, where life is just more relaxed. Thank you for your thoughts.

przeor 4y ago
I would pick Barbados for tax reasons
badpun 4y ago
More relaxed than Germany? I always thought it's one of the most relaxed country in the world. Rich, well-run, with excellent safety nets, great worker rights etc.
janekg 4y ago
How do you come to the 72%, I'm just interested.
- kblev 4y ago
  VAT + Income Tax + Socials?
  - bartminton 4y ago
    Income tax + business tax pile up to 50% already. I don't pay social taxes by choice, hence I do not benefit from the social net. If I add up all other taxes then, I end up pretty close at 70%. Meaning mostly VAT, taxes on gas and oil, alcohol, tobacco, final withholding tax on stock and crypto investments and speculation, vehicle tax, electricity tax. All in all there are close to 40 different types of tax, but we don't have to pay all of them. But being in the highest income tax band as a tech freelancer with virtually no deductible costs you pay taxes first, and then have to take care about health care, insurances and pension afterwards. Even if you make some good money, that does not leave you with a lot to live. At least that's our scenario for many years now.
    - jobegrabber 4y ago
      >Income tax + business tax pile up to 50% already Is that for all your income or "just" over a certain threshold? >Even if you make some good money, that does not leave you with a lot to live. You said you travelled to different countries in Europe, Africa and Asia. Do you consider that not leaving you with a lot to live? >with virtually no deductible costs you pay taxes first, and then have to take care about health care, insurances and pension afterwards Those are all, up to a certain degree, deductible from your taxes, right?
      - bartminton 4y ago
        >Is that for all your income or "just" over a certain threshold? Regarding income tax, there is a tax free allowance of 9.984. >You said you travelled to different countries in Europe, Africa and Asia. Do you consider that not leaving you with a lot to live? We travel for more than 15 years and we mostly leverage so called PEP offers, which reduce your travel cost to a fraction of the real cost. Otherwise we'd not be able to afford that. >Those are all, up to a certain degree, deductible from your taxes, right? That's the point. They are NOT! The only deductible position would be an official pension insurance. If you invest on your own (which we do) you can not deduct a dime. Everything else we have to pay AFTER taxation.
        jobegrabber 4y ago
        Sound's like it's quite a lot to live on if you have enough cash on hand to travel only "mostly" on PEP. >That's the point. They are NOT! Your private pension might not be - but with Health Care, business expenses and certain type of insurances there's more than "virtually no deductible costs" though. There's a lot of stuff that seems unfair, I agree. I'm not here to debate that you pay more into the system as others and don't get more benefits from it - but the picture you're painting of a 70 % overall tax rate and "not a lot to live on" strikes me as a bit too grim.
    - darrrwin 4y ago
      You can compare taxes here: https://files.taxfoundation.org/20191022154112/TEMTR-41Countries.png https://files.taxfoundation.org/20191022154112/TEMTR-41Count... To compare cost of living: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp Safety comparison: https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2022&displayColumn=1 https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2...
tobylane 4y ago
Can you share your working out for the “real” tax rate? We could see how various US states, first world countries vary. Does knowing that the lowest state is say 50% make it easier to pick Portugal at say 60%?
rich_sasha 4y ago
One thing that's really hard to compare when looking at taxes is the quality of public services you get. UK has not low taxes by any measure, but certainly lower than eg Germany, at 200k you're looking at effective tax rate of about 35-40% all in. But state schools are a lottery and shut down for 13 weeks a year. Healthcare is good if you can get seen but otherwise it's the private health insurance. Public transport is expensive. Social security in this segment of earnings is non-existent, you would be ineligible for many things (because "earn too much"), unemployment benefits only available if you have 0 savings left and so on. I'm not sure I'd recommend the UK though it's less bad an option than it seems, it's just a demo.
- oumua_don17 4y ago
  In UK, can you please tell me how at 200K pounds, the taxes can come down only to 35-40% especially at 125K or above, the 60% tax trap kicks in. [1] If you can specify any tax saving tips or refer to some consultant, I will be grateful. Really the only way in UK is to put in a large part of your earnings into pension contributions which effectively makes it out of bounds till 55 or 57 from 2028 onwards, which means even if you have FU money you can't use it. Again if you have large RSU payouts due to working at a FAANG, it can be difficult as you start hitting lifetime allowance of your pension contributions. [1] https://www.nutmeg.com/nuggets/escape-the-60-tax-trap https://www.nutmeg.com/nuggets/escape-the-60-tax-trap edit: specifying that the above comment is for UK
  - BerislavLopac 4y ago
    What 60% trap is that? The linked page looks very suspicious and doesn't offer much information.
    - AndrewDucker 4y ago
      Between 100k and 125k you lose £1 of your tax allowance for each £2 you earn. Which greatly increases your tax in that window.
      - 4y ago

przeor 4y ago

I would pick Barbados for tax reasons

badpun 4y ago

More relaxed than Germany? I always thought it's one of the most relaxed country in the world. Rich, well-run, with excellent safety nets, great worker rights etc.

janekg 4y ago

How do you come to the 72%, I'm just interested.

kblev 4y ago
VAT + Income Tax + Socials?
- bartminton 4y ago
  Income tax + business tax pile up to 50% already. I don't pay social taxes by choice, hence I do not benefit from the social net. If I add up all other taxes then, I end up pretty close at 70%. Meaning mostly VAT, taxes on gas and oil, alcohol, tobacco, final withholding tax on stock and crypto investments and speculation, vehicle tax, electricity tax. All in all there are close to 40 different types of tax, but we don't have to pay all of them. But being in the highest income tax band as a tech freelancer with virtually no deductible costs you pay taxes first, and then have to take care about health care, insurances and pension afterwards. Even if you make some good money, that does not leave you with a lot to live. At least that's our scenario for many years now.
  - jobegrabber 4y ago
    >Income tax + business tax pile up to 50% already Is that for all your income or "just" over a certain threshold? >Even if you make some good money, that does not leave you with a lot to live. You said you travelled to different countries in Europe, Africa and Asia. Do you consider that not leaving you with a lot to live? >with virtually no deductible costs you pay taxes first, and then have to take care about health care, insurances and pension afterwards Those are all, up to a certain degree, deductible from your taxes, right?
    - bartminton 4y ago
      >Is that for all your income or "just" over a certain threshold? Regarding income tax, there is a tax free allowance of 9.984. >You said you travelled to different countries in Europe, Africa and Asia. Do you consider that not leaving you with a lot to live? We travel for more than 15 years and we mostly leverage so called PEP offers, which reduce your travel cost to a fraction of the real cost. Otherwise we'd not be able to afford that. >Those are all, up to a certain degree, deductible from your taxes, right? That's the point. They are NOT! The only deductible position would be an official pension insurance. If you invest on your own (which we do) you can not deduct a dime. Everything else we have to pay AFTER taxation.
      - jobegrabber 4y ago
        Sound's like it's quite a lot to live on if you have enough cash on hand to travel only "mostly" on PEP. >That's the point. They are NOT! Your private pension might not be - but with Health Care, business expenses and certain type of insurances there's more than "virtually no deductible costs" though. There's a lot of stuff that seems unfair, I agree. I'm not here to debate that you pay more into the system as others and don't get more benefits from it - but the picture you're painting of a 70 % overall tax rate and "not a lot to live on" strikes me as a bit too grim.
  - darrrwin 4y ago
    You can compare taxes here: https://files.taxfoundation.org/20191022154112/TEMTR-41Countries.png https://files.taxfoundation.org/20191022154112/TEMTR-41Count... To compare cost of living: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp Safety comparison: https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2022&displayColumn=1 https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2...

tobylane 4y ago

Can you share your working out for the “real” tax rate? We could see how various US states, first world countries vary. Does knowing that the lowest state is say 50% make it easier to pick Portugal at say 60%?

rich_sasha 4y ago

One thing that's really hard to compare when looking at taxes is the quality of public services you get. UK has not low taxes by any measure, but certainly lower than eg Germany, at 200k you're looking at effective tax rate of about 35-40% all in. But state schools are a lottery and shut down for 13 weeks a year. Healthcare is good if you can get seen but otherwise it's the private health insurance. Public transport is expensive. Social security in this segment of earnings is non-existent, you would be ineligible for many things (because "earn too much"), unemployment benefits only available if you have 0 savings left and so on. I'm not sure I'd recommend the UK though it's less bad an option than it seems, it's just a demo.

oumua_don17 4y ago
In UK, can you please tell me how at 200K pounds, the taxes can come down only to 35-40% especially at 125K or above, the 60% tax trap kicks in. [1] If you can specify any tax saving tips or refer to some consultant, I will be grateful. Really the only way in UK is to put in a large part of your earnings into pension contributions which effectively makes it out of bounds till 55 or 57 from 2028 onwards, which means even if you have FU money you can't use it. Again if you have large RSU payouts due to working at a FAANG, it can be difficult as you start hitting lifetime allowance of your pension contributions. [1] https://www.nutmeg.com/nuggets/escape-the-60-tax-trap https://www.nutmeg.com/nuggets/escape-the-60-tax-trap edit: specifying that the above comment is for UK
- BerislavLopac 4y ago
  What 60% trap is that? The linked page looks very suspicious and doesn't offer much information.
  - AndrewDucker 4y ago
    Between 100k and 125k you lose £1 of your tax allowance for each £2 you earn. Which greatly increases your tax in that window.
    - 4y ago