4 ms·

What is keeping Zettelkasten from being adopted by a lot of other people is probably the unnecessary complexity and over-commercialization of note-taking system

What is keeping Zettelkasten from being adopted by a lot of other people is probably the unnecessary complexity and over-commercialization of note-taking systems. Zettelkasten is supposed to be simple and fluid at its core. You don't need to pay 100$ for a course to learn someone else's workflow, and overload your senses with a dozen plugins.

jrm4 4y ago
Exactly right. After messing around with this sort of thing for a while, the revelation I've had is: The human brain is much better than the computer at the whole nodes+connections thing, and the process of having/creating/reviewing large well-thought out things as "notes" is superior to a bunch of little scraps everywhere.
- coldblues 4y ago
  I can't say for certain if "little scraps everywhere" are inferior. https://napkin.one https://napkin.one is experimenting with this, and a lot of people seem to like it. It's very simple to write and link little notes together with it.
  - vladsanchez 4y ago
    I like the GUI/UX, but in essence Napkin et al are basically a regurgitation of the same app over and over, only varying the UX to appeal different tastes/audiences. For example, what do these apps do that aren't already implemented in others like OneOne, LogSeq, Obsidian, Dendron, etc?
    - taurusnoises 4y ago
      UI/UX is no small thing. For some people, it can ultimately make or break their ability to get into the work. While it's nice to think we should all be heroically disengaged from the aesthetics and feel of a thing, those aspects have an effect. No shame in that. Different people like different UIs.
      - vladsanchez 4y ago
        Agreed and support your view. It just explains the explosion of choices.
jmeister 4y ago
How can having more technologically sophisticated options discourage adoption? There’s nothing stopping people from doing it on Notepad, or cards like old Luhmann himself.
- coldblues 4y ago
  I was more so addressing productivity gurus and plunging head first into a complex system without building up to a comfortable level, and becoming overwhelmed. Those people would miss the point and say that continuing to write their notes in Evernote is much simpler. At least that's what I think happens.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  The trend seems to be towards minimalist UIs at the expense of depth of features. Extremely popular utility apps tend to be very simple ones. The more capable something is, the less popular it seems to be. Case in point: Ableton Live conquered the DAW market. Do I use Ableton Live? No, it doesn't have sophisticated enough features I need for scoring motion picture or video games.
taurusnoises 4y ago
I defs agree that there's a lot of overcomplexity added to the zettelkasten discussion. That's part of what I'm trying to undo. And yet, as someone who teaches a course on zettelkasten, I don't think there's anything wrong (or unreasonable) about getting a group of people together to learn something that's relatively new to them, and who are interested in being in a community situation with others who also want to learn, and for whom it is also new. Also seems not unreasonable to make some money while doing so. It is labor after all, and often quite bit of it. As far as learning "someone else's workflow," A. who else's workflow would one learn in a group class environment?? And B. classes can be taught in such a way so that the principles and practices empower people to create something truly their own and not ape that of someone else. At least good teachers can do that ;)
deleted 4y ago
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BeetleB 4y ago
> What is keeping Zettelkasten from being adopted by a lot of other people is probably the unnecessary complexity and over-commercialization of note-taking systems. What is keeping them is that even the original version is labor intensive. Most people are forgetting that ZK is a tool to organize knowledge for the purpose of writing papers. When the craze began a few years ago I dove deep into it and discovered a few things: - 95% of people/sites talking about ZK are not following the ZK principles (atomic notes, with forward and reverse links). - It is time consuming. When you write a new note, you have to put in the effort to make multiple notes to make them atomic, and spend time figuring out the appropriate links/chains to insert them into. This often requires examining a lot of previous material you've written to ensure there is not much overlap. It's a much slower note taking process than anything else I've used. - Those that do follow it say you need to stick to it for a long time (at least a few years) before the gains start to compensate for the labor. I recall one particular academic who started doing ZK during his grad school years say it took about 8 years of following the ZK discipline before it began to pay off (and it keeps paying off years later). Think about it: All the knowledge accumulated stored in the form of ZK notes, and it didn't pay off until quite a bit after his thesis defense. I don't doubt ZK is worth it, but I simply don't have the time. One has to factor in opportunity costs. Unless you plan to become a prolific writer/essayist, I would not recommend this approach.
- tra3 4y ago
  > I don't doubt ZK is worth it, but I simply don't have the time. Rings very true. I'm trying to leverage ZK and incremental reading for better learning. So much content, that I read, that I simply don't retain. Or retain passively. If I can't use the knowledge was it worth reading in the first place? I'm experimenting with reading half as much, but taking pains to remember the salient points. I'll let you know in 8 years if it's working :D
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
kstrauser 4y ago
I think that while Zettelkasten may be useful for people who primarily want to publish writings, I decided that it’s the wrong approach for me. I don’t want to publish. I want to be able to organize my data so that I could easily reference later, whether it’s what I was doing for a particular customer, or what my kid likes to eat at a certain restaurant. “Linking Your Thinking” works much better, for me, for that use case. Same deal there: you don’t need a whole course.
- taurusnoises 4y ago
  100%. I recommend LYT to people who aren't looking to publish all. the. time. There's no need to work the zk if writing isn't your main interest.
oxff 4y ago
People dont understand that the whole graph-first note taking is not even ZK.

jrm4 4y ago

Exactly right. After messing around with this sort of thing for a while, the revelation I've had is: The human brain is much better than the computer at the whole nodes+connections thing, and the process of having/creating/reviewing large well-thought out things as "notes" is superior to a bunch of little scraps everywhere.

coldblues 4y ago
I can't say for certain if "little scraps everywhere" are inferior. https://napkin.one https://napkin.one is experimenting with this, and a lot of people seem to like it. It's very simple to write and link little notes together with it.
- vladsanchez 4y ago
  I like the GUI/UX, but in essence Napkin et al are basically a regurgitation of the same app over and over, only varying the UX to appeal different tastes/audiences. For example, what do these apps do that aren't already implemented in others like OneOne, LogSeq, Obsidian, Dendron, etc?
  - taurusnoises 4y ago
    UI/UX is no small thing. For some people, it can ultimately make or break their ability to get into the work. While it's nice to think we should all be heroically disengaged from the aesthetics and feel of a thing, those aspects have an effect. No shame in that. Different people like different UIs.
    - vladsanchez 4y ago
      Agreed and support your view. It just explains the explosion of choices.

jmeister 4y ago

How can having more technologically sophisticated options discourage adoption? There’s nothing stopping people from doing it on Notepad, or cards like old Luhmann himself.

coldblues 4y ago
I was more so addressing productivity gurus and plunging head first into a complex system without building up to a comfortable level, and becoming overwhelmed. Those people would miss the point and say that continuing to write their notes in Evernote is much simpler. At least that's what I think happens.
hammyhavoc 4y ago
The trend seems to be towards minimalist UIs at the expense of depth of features. Extremely popular utility apps tend to be very simple ones. The more capable something is, the less popular it seems to be. Case in point: Ableton Live conquered the DAW market. Do I use Ableton Live? No, it doesn't have sophisticated enough features I need for scoring motion picture or video games.

taurusnoises 4y ago

I defs agree that there's a lot of overcomplexity added to the zettelkasten discussion. That's part of what I'm trying to undo. And yet, as someone who teaches a course on zettelkasten, I don't think there's anything wrong (or unreasonable) about getting a group of people together to learn something that's relatively new to them, and who are interested in being in a community situation with others who also want to learn, and for whom it is also new. Also seems not unreasonable to make some money while doing so. It is labor after all, and often quite bit of it. As far as learning "someone else's workflow," A. who else's workflow would one learn in a group class environment?? And B. classes can be taught in such a way so that the principles and practices empower people to create something truly their own and not ape that of someone else. At least good teachers can do that ;)

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

BeetleB 4y ago

> What is keeping Zettelkasten from being adopted by a lot of other people is probably the unnecessary complexity and over-commercialization of note-taking systems. What is keeping them is that even the original version is labor intensive. Most people are forgetting that ZK is a tool to organize knowledge for the purpose of writing papers. When the craze began a few years ago I dove deep into it and discovered a few things: - 95% of people/sites talking about ZK are not following the ZK principles (atomic notes, with forward and reverse links). - It is time consuming. When you write a new note, you have to put in the effort to make multiple notes to make them atomic, and spend time figuring out the appropriate links/chains to insert them into. This often requires examining a lot of previous material you've written to ensure there is not much overlap. It's a much slower note taking process than anything else I've used. - Those that do follow it say you need to stick to it for a long time (at least a few years) before the gains start to compensate for the labor. I recall one particular academic who started doing ZK during his grad school years say it took about 8 years of following the ZK discipline before it began to pay off (and it keeps paying off years later). Think about it: All the knowledge accumulated stored in the form of ZK notes, and it didn't pay off until quite a bit after his thesis defense. I don't doubt ZK is worth it, but I simply don't have the time. One has to factor in opportunity costs. Unless you plan to become a prolific writer/essayist, I would not recommend this approach.

tra3 4y ago
> I don't doubt ZK is worth it, but I simply don't have the time. Rings very true. I'm trying to leverage ZK and incremental reading for better learning. So much content, that I read, that I simply don't retain. Or retain passively. If I can't use the knowledge was it worth reading in the first place? I'm experimenting with reading half as much, but taking pains to remember the salient points. I'll let you know in 8 years if it's working :D
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

kstrauser 4y ago

I think that while Zettelkasten may be useful for people who primarily want to publish writings, I decided that it’s the wrong approach for me. I don’t want to publish. I want to be able to organize my data so that I could easily reference later, whether it’s what I was doing for a particular customer, or what my kid likes to eat at a certain restaurant. “Linking Your Thinking” works much better, for me, for that use case. Same deal there: you don’t need a whole course.

taurusnoises 4y ago
100%. I recommend LYT to people who aren't looking to publish all. the. time. There's no need to work the zk if writing isn't your main interest.

oxff 4y ago

People dont understand that the whole graph-first note taking is not even ZK.