4 ms·

It would be misleading to gloss over IRV's significant failings if we're talking about criteria failure. * 8 people vote: A, C, B * 5 people vote: B, C, A * 4

It would be misleading to gloss over IRV's significant failings if we're talking about criteria failure. * 8 people vote: A, C, B * 5 people vote: B, C, A * 4 people vote: C, B, A IRV eliminates C, despite the majority of voters preferring C over B (12 to 5). The order of elimination means that significant secondary preferences are often ignored.

eli 15y ago
Sure, but you really should not underestimate how important it is that everyone understand how their vote is counted. I had a roommate who worked for a voting reform nonprofit and he said even gathering signatures for "simple" IRV is quite challenging. It's just too hard to explain quickly.
- chc 15y ago
  Top 10 lists are not a novel concept for most people. Individual votes are precisely like that. Cumulatively, the person who did the best on everyone's lists wins. It's far simpler than the system we have now. The plural of anecdote isn't evidence, I know, but: I had Condorcet voting briefly explained to me at a young age, and I grasped it immediately. I couldn't do the math, but it was conceptually really easy to grasp. I didn't fully understand the current US system until around age 20.
  - chimeracoder 15y ago
    > I had Condorcet voting briefly explained to me at a young age, and I grasped it immediately. Unfortunately, HN readers are not representative of the general population. It's not that complicated, no, but I can see people having a lot more trouble with understanding Concordet voting than with understanding IRV.
wisty 15y ago
Here's another hypothetical example: 6 * Republicans, Libertarians, Democrats; 5 * Democrats, Libertarians, Republicans; 2 * Libertarians, Democrats, Republicans. Liberians are eliminated (despite the majority of voters preferring them over the Democrats), and Democrats win. Notice how when you use party names, it makes more sense? The Republican and Democrat voters are simply voting "anyone but the other major party". If they are neck-to-neck on primary votes, then the secondary votes of the minor parties start to be counted. This is a feature, not a bug.
- bradbeattie 15y ago
  I see your point here, but all voters in your mockup presented the Libertarians as their first or second choice. As a compromise candidate, that's not a bad option. Further, I don't think real-world voting would match up exactly with the above. There are people that would vote R/D/L and D/R/L, both of which are lacking from this example that would swing things away from the Libertarians.

eli 15y ago

Sure, but you really should not underestimate how important it is that everyone understand how their vote is counted. I had a roommate who worked for a voting reform nonprofit and he said even gathering signatures for "simple" IRV is quite challenging. It's just too hard to explain quickly.

chc 15y ago
Top 10 lists are not a novel concept for most people. Individual votes are precisely like that. Cumulatively, the person who did the best on everyone's lists wins. It's far simpler than the system we have now. The plural of anecdote isn't evidence, I know, but: I had Condorcet voting briefly explained to me at a young age, and I grasped it immediately. I couldn't do the math, but it was conceptually really easy to grasp. I didn't fully understand the current US system until around age 20.
- chimeracoder 15y ago
  > I had Condorcet voting briefly explained to me at a young age, and I grasped it immediately. Unfortunately, HN readers are not representative of the general population. It's not that complicated, no, but I can see people having a lot more trouble with understanding Concordet voting than with understanding IRV.

wisty 15y ago

Here's another hypothetical example: 6 * Republicans, Libertarians, Democrats; 5 * Democrats, Libertarians, Republicans; 2 * Libertarians, Democrats, Republicans. Liberians are eliminated (despite the majority of voters preferring them over the Democrats), and Democrats win. Notice how when you use party names, it makes more sense? The Republican and Democrat voters are simply voting "anyone but the other major party". If they are neck-to-neck on primary votes, then the secondary votes of the minor parties start to be counted. This is a feature, not a bug.

bradbeattie 15y ago
I see your point here, but all voters in your mockup presented the Libertarians as their first or second choice. As a compromise candidate, that's not a bad option. Further, I don't think real-world voting would match up exactly with the above. There are people that would vote R/D/L and D/R/L, both of which are lacking from this example that would swing things away from the Libertarians.