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I'm torn about this. One one hand, the slippery slope of this is car microtransactions, so the pushback is very much needed and understandable. People had to vo

I'm torn about this. One one hand, the slippery slope of this is car microtransactions, so the pushback is very much needed and understandable. People had to vote with their wallet until manufacturers gave up on charging subscriptions for Apple Carplay/Android Auto. On the other hand, the use case BMW is presenting is actually quite reasonable: making car extras available to second hand buyers (and presumably, making their pipeline more effective and flexible so they don't have to customize cars at build time). I'd be thrilled if I bought a used car without heated seats and was able to "add" heated seats and other upgrades on the spot, by paying one-time fees for the extras that the original owner didn't purchase. Car extras are already very much a thing and always have been – the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade. Forcing the car maker to have to physically neuter the hardware out of "purity" strikes be as something a bit silly.

zwog 4y ago
But if it's cheaper for them to add the necessary hardware and deactivate it, then they could add the hardware and activate it for free for every car.
jacquesm 4y ago
> the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade No, the alternative is to simply sell what you have 'as is', and not to try to graft a subscription model onto every sale. Rather than selling unnecessary services BMW should focus on selling cars. And with the number of software issues their vehicles suffer from (a friend of mine was an avid BMW fan for many years his cars spent more time in the shop for software issues than mine ever did for all of their maintenance put together over the same 20 year period) they should strive to have less software related components rather than more of them. Finally, what do you think the chances are that they are able to keep that service up and running over the service life of their vehicles?
Bancakes 4y ago
You would be thrilled for purchasing a car with heated seats, and paying a redundant subscription for heated seats?
- Anderkent 4y ago
  the proposed counterfactual is that BMW pays someone to brick the heating before the first sale
  - disruptiveink 4y ago
    Exactly. You're not "buying a car with heated seats that you can't use", you're buying the car without heated seats because you didn't pay for them. The difference is that BMW has to cripple the car before they give it to you if you don't pay right now.
    - Bancakes 4y ago
      The alternative is that you buy a car with offline heated seats...
josephcsible 4y ago
> On the other hand, the use case BMW is presenting is actually quite reasonable: making car extras available to second hand buyers (and presumably, making their pipeline more effective and flexible so they don't have to customize cars at build time). Wouldn't both of those goals be accomplished just by letting anyone who buys the car use the heated seats? > Car extras are already very much a thing and always have been – the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade. The point is that if BMW is willing to pay for the heated seat components in every car they make, then anyone who buys a BMW should be able to use the heated seats. You shouldn't have to pay someone else money for the privilege of fully utilizing something that you own outright.
Anderkent 4y ago
> Car extras are already very much a thing and always have been – the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade. Forcing the car maker to have to physically neuter the hardware out of "purity" strikes be as something a bit silly. this is buying into a market differentiation approach that I see no reason to tolerate it's one thing to differentiate by installing something extra (at cost) to charge a price higher than the cost to some market segment. sure, do that as much as you want, makes sense
bastardoperator 4y ago
What if you bought a car with heated seats and you could just use them without paying for them indefinitely like how everyone else does it?
geodel 4y ago
Agree. Besides I think the larger point is that this is an idea whose time as come. Now people take this in a rather positive manner about things they feel righteous. For me it is about so many things irrespective of my liking.
highwaylights 4y ago
Is that a fair comparison? You'd expect to less for seats without a heating element, rather than paying less to have them rip out something they already put in.
- disruptiveink 4y ago
  Are you factoring in the hit in productivity in the production line so that you have to do N variations instead of 1 for all of these things? At some point, if the heating element is cheap enough, it costs them more to NOT put the heating element in.
itsoktocry 4y ago
>I'd be thrilled if I bought a used car without heated seats and was able to "add" heated seats and other upgrades on the spot This is an odd interpretation. You aren't buying a car without heated seats and "adding" them. They are already there. >the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade How on earth is that the alternative? That would cost them more money in labour. Once the car is sold, why does BMW have to do anything?
- disruptiveink 4y ago
  Car extras always existed, and they will always keep existing. If someone doesn't want to pay for heated seats, right now, the car manufacturer will ensure that the hardware just isn't there or is somehow disabled, even if it costs them more to ensure that you don't have access that extra. As a second-hand owner, or just the owner who changed their mind later down the line, there is an obvious benefit to being able to purchase an extra without going to a dealership or a mechanic and incurring in extra costs in replacing the whole part – you really wouldn't bother for something like heated seats. What the car manufacturer is saying here is that they would prefer to ship the extra part in all the cars because it doesn't cost them that much and letting the owner (or next owner) change their mind is an obvious benefit, but that if they're not allowed to charge extra for a part that they already shipped, then they will keep on ripping out or damaging the part before it gets sold.
acomjean 4y ago
They used to but fake "buttons" on the dash for features you could have gotten but where too cheap too. As opposed to just a flat surface it was raised plastic. The folks at the dealership my dad worked at called them "guilt buttons". If you aren't using the heated seats, you're lugging around extra weight, more electrical complexity. You can't sell your car as having them, as you have no idea if they work after how many years.
AinderS 4y ago
You think better market segmentation will be to your benefit?
the_third_wave 4y ago
That is a very convoluted path towards getting a device - this is not limited to cars - with some optional extra. It breaks with the first sale doctrine by giving the original seller power over what is done with the product they sold which in my opinion is a big and resounding no-go. The idea of BMW having to 'physically ... remove the heater components or disable them permanently' is silly, if the original buyer did not order heated seats BMW could simply not have installed them. If they still install the heated seat cover because it is cheaper for them to just install the thing on every car that is their problem, not that of the buyer who does not want it. They can just leave out the controller - these things are controlled by a separate CAN-bus connected power supply without which they don't do anything - for those cars which are ordered without the option. Again, if they install the controller in all cars because that is cheaper for them that is their problem. Giving them the the ability to enable or disable components after the first sale based on a license payment suddenly makes this your problem. Don't fall for this ruse.

zwog 4y ago

But if it's cheaper for them to add the necessary hardware and deactivate it, then they could add the hardware and activate it for free for every car.

jacquesm 4y ago

> the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade No, the alternative is to simply sell what you have 'as is', and not to try to graft a subscription model onto every sale. Rather than selling unnecessary services BMW should focus on selling cars. And with the number of software issues their vehicles suffer from (a friend of mine was an avid BMW fan for many years his cars spent more time in the shop for software issues than mine ever did for all of their maintenance put together over the same 20 year period) they should strive to have less software related components rather than more of them. Finally, what do you think the chances are that they are able to keep that service up and running over the service life of their vehicles?

Bancakes 4y ago

You would be thrilled for purchasing a car with heated seats, and paying a redundant subscription for heated seats?

Anderkent 4y ago
the proposed counterfactual is that BMW pays someone to brick the heating before the first sale
- disruptiveink 4y ago
  Exactly. You're not "buying a car with heated seats that you can't use", you're buying the car without heated seats because you didn't pay for them. The difference is that BMW has to cripple the car before they give it to you if you don't pay right now.
  - Bancakes 4y ago
    The alternative is that you buy a car with offline heated seats...

josephcsible 4y ago

> On the other hand, the use case BMW is presenting is actually quite reasonable: making car extras available to second hand buyers (and presumably, making their pipeline more effective and flexible so they don't have to customize cars at build time). Wouldn't both of those goals be accomplished just by letting anyone who buys the car use the heated seats? > Car extras are already very much a thing and always have been – the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade. The point is that if BMW is willing to pay for the heated seat components in every car they make, then anyone who buys a BMW should be able to use the heated seats. You shouldn't have to pay someone else money for the privilege of fully utilizing something that you own outright.

Anderkent 4y ago

> Car extras are already very much a thing and always have been – the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade. Forcing the car maker to have to physically neuter the hardware out of "purity" strikes be as something a bit silly. this is buying into a market differentiation approach that I see no reason to tolerate it's one thing to differentiate by installing something extra (at cost) to charge a price higher than the cost to some market segment. sure, do that as much as you want, makes sense

bastardoperator 4y ago

What if you bought a car with heated seats and you could just use them without paying for them indefinitely like how everyone else does it?

geodel 4y ago

Agree. Besides I think the larger point is that this is an idea whose time as come. Now people take this in a rather positive manner about things they feel righteous. For me it is about so many things irrespective of my liking.

highwaylights 4y ago

Is that a fair comparison? You'd expect to less for seats without a heating element, rather than paying less to have them rip out something they already put in.

disruptiveink 4y ago
Are you factoring in the hit in productivity in the production line so that you have to do N variations instead of 1 for all of these things? At some point, if the heating element is cheap enough, it costs them more to NOT put the heating element in.

itsoktocry 4y ago

>I'd be thrilled if I bought a used car without heated seats and was able to "add" heated seats and other upgrades on the spot This is an odd interpretation. You aren't buying a car without heated seats and "adding" them. They are already there. >the alternative is that BMW physically has to remove the heater components or disable them permanently, so as a second hand buyer, I'd be permanently locked out of the upgrade How on earth is that the alternative? That would cost them more money in labour. Once the car is sold, why does BMW have to do anything?

disruptiveink 4y ago
Car extras always existed, and they will always keep existing. If someone doesn't want to pay for heated seats, right now, the car manufacturer will ensure that the hardware just isn't there or is somehow disabled, even if it costs them more to ensure that you don't have access that extra. As a second-hand owner, or just the owner who changed their mind later down the line, there is an obvious benefit to being able to purchase an extra without going to a dealership or a mechanic and incurring in extra costs in replacing the whole part – you really wouldn't bother for something like heated seats. What the car manufacturer is saying here is that they would prefer to ship the extra part in all the cars because it doesn't cost them that much and letting the owner (or next owner) change their mind is an obvious benefit, but that if they're not allowed to charge extra for a part that they already shipped, then they will keep on ripping out or damaging the part before it gets sold.

acomjean 4y ago

They used to but fake "buttons" on the dash for features you could have gotten but where too cheap too. As opposed to just a flat surface it was raised plastic. The folks at the dealership my dad worked at called them "guilt buttons". If you aren't using the heated seats, you're lugging around extra weight, more electrical complexity. You can't sell your car as having them, as you have no idea if they work after how many years.

AinderS 4y ago

You think better market segmentation will be to your benefit?

the_third_wave 4y ago

That is a very convoluted path towards getting a device - this is not limited to cars - with some optional extra. It breaks with the first sale doctrine by giving the original seller power over what is done with the product they sold which in my opinion is a big and resounding no-go. The idea of BMW having to 'physically ... remove the heater components or disable them permanently' is silly, if the original buyer did not order heated seats BMW could simply not have installed them. If they still install the heated seat cover because it is cheaper for them to just install the thing on every car that is their problem, not that of the buyer who does not want it. They can just leave out the controller - these things are controlled by a separate CAN-bus connected power supply without which they don't do anything - for those cars which are ordered without the option. Again, if they install the controller in all cars because that is cheaper for them that is their problem. Giving them the the ability to enable or disable components after the first sale based on a license payment suddenly makes this your problem. Don't fall for this ruse.