7 ms·

I remember watching at least part of the film as a child (too young to appreciate it at all), and seeing this scene particular later as an adult. It's intense,

by lkbm 4y ago

I remember watching at least part of the film as a child (too young to appreciate it at all), and seeing this scene particular later as an adult. It's intense, and as mentioned towards the end of this analysis, the actual words of the anthem are brutal. They're not singing "God save the king", but rather "we will water our fields with the blood of our enemies." What I don't think I ever realized is that the film is from 1942. Pretty much every WWII film is from long after the war ended, but this was released early in the France occupation. That adds so much to its meaning and power.

baud147258 4y ago
> They're not singing "God save the king", but rather "we will water our fields with the blood of our enemies." Well, when the Marseillaise was written, they were about to kill the king, forgo any reference to God and were watering fields with the blood of their enemies (and French soldiers), so it was appropriate, no?
- Juliate 4y ago
  The song was written in April 1792 in the context of the declaration of war from France to Austria. The then very recent constitutional monarchy fell in August. The king trial began in November and even then, although death was requested by some, it was not an evidence yet. Death was voted with a small majority in January.
- kergonath 4y ago
  It was complicated. It was a constitutional monarchy at the time, and killing the king was at least one sub-revolution away. Seriously, there were many, many ways he could have avoided being executed. The Revolutions podcast has a decent summary of all of it, including Louis XVI’s many mis-calculations and stupid PR mistakes. If you can call “a summary” 20 hours worth of podcast. They were at war with half of Europe though, and directly threatened by the Austrian army, amongst others.
  - rodgerd 4y ago
    Much like the Tsars and Charles I and James I, the French monarchs of the time seem determined to escalate until it got them killed. Modern billionaires could probably do with some history lessons.
    - kergonath 4y ago
      You’re right, it’s like something that did not happen in their lifetimes will not happen ever. To be fair to old Louis though, he did learn from the English civil war: he read Hume’s History of England and was well aware of how Charles I got killed. He tried very hard not to be as inflexible. So instead he got killed for going with the wind and saying yes too often, to the wrong people. And trying to flee, which was really un-patriotic, completely sank the legitimacy of the constitutional monarchy, and opened the door for the radicals.
jcranmer 4y ago
> It's intense, and as mentioned towards the end of this analysis, the actual words of the anthem are brutal. They're not singing "God save the king", but rather "we will water our fields with the blood of our enemies." La Marseillaise, if you boil it down to a single sentence, is basically "Fight on, Frenchmen... because we are utterly screwed if you don't."--almost all of the violence in the song is about the violence directed towards the French by the various coalitions arrayed against it at that time. (Also extremely notable for a national anthem of that period, it never specifically identifies an enemy--contrast that to the dueling German anthem in the film, which is a rather explicitly anti-French anthem.)
- pmontra 4y ago
  Or the Italian one which is anti-Austrian.
  - smcl 4y ago
    But in doing so it features some solidarity with the Polish :D > Son giunchi che piegano (Mercenary swords) > le spade vendute (they're feeble reeds) > già l'Aquila d'Austria (The Austrian eagle) > le penne ha perdute. (Has already lost its plumes) > Il sangue d'Italia, (The blood of Italy) > il sangue Polacco, (and the Polish blood) > bevé, col cosacco, (It drank, along with the Cossack) > ma il cor le bruciò (But it burned its heart) ... this is actually reciprocated in the Polish anthem: > Marsz, marsz, Dąbrowski, (March, march, Dąbrowski) > Z ziemi włoskiej do Polski. (From the Italian land to Poland) > Za twoim przewodem (Under your command) > Złączym się z narodem. (We shall rejoin the nation)
    - andreareina 4y ago
      Translation on the first two verses is reversed
- Mlller 4y ago
  > contrast that to the dueling German anthem in the film, which is a rather explicitly anti-French anthem Yes, OTOH it seems to have a mere passive, defensive spirit: “a guardian of the river” – “the watch on the Rhine” – “protects the sacred border of the land” – “remain”,[1] written afraid of annexation: “Repeated French efforts to annex the Left Bank of the Rhine began with the devastating wars of King Louis XIV. French forces carried out massive scorched earth campaigns in the German south-west. This policy was fully implemented during the Napoleonic Wars with the creation of the Confederation of the Rhine in 1806–1813. In the two centuries from the Thirty Years' War to the final defeat of Napoleon I, the German inhabitants of lands by the Rhine suffered from repeated French invasions. The defeat and exile of Napoleon gave the Germans some respite, but during the Rhine Crisis of 1840, French prime minister Adolphe Thiers advanced the claim that the Upper and Middle Rhine River should serve as his country's "natural eastern border". The member states of the German Confederation feared that France was resuming her annexationist designs.”[2] Maybe itʼs even meant as a signal of dishonesty that it is sung by soldiers whose army didnʼt watch at the Rhine but occupied France brutally? Anyway, I donʼt intend to praise the Wacht am Rhein, itʼs certainly not great poetry, rather a rattling and clattering from the dustbin of history. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein#Lyrics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein#Lyrics [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein#Origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein#Origin
dmitriid 4y ago
There's a scene that's a jusxtaposition to Casablanca's (and bow I realise it may have been intended as such): Tomorrow Belongs To Me from Cabaret. It's intense, chilling, and ultimately frightening.
- rospaya 4y ago
  It's brilliant and I always thought it shows the way something innocent can be appropriated, both the kid and the song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv0jav4lNsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv0jav4lNsk
  - cardiffspaceman 4y ago
    Ironically it was written by Caberet's authors.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mytailorisrich 4y ago
As it happens La Marseillaise was originally the war song of the French Rhine Army, which was led by a German-born (Bavarian) field Marshal at the time, and was written after France declared war to Austria. This was long before German unification and the head-on rivalry it created.
bsaul 4y ago
it's actually a common misunderstanding (even amongst french) : the "impure" blood the french anthem is talking about is their own blood, not the one from their ennemies. Nobility was calling them impure (since not from noble blood), and they reversed it to something to be proud of (kind of).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lou1306 4y ago
  Are there any reputable sources for that interpretation? At face value, it seems like a flimsy attempt at sweeping the unfortunate implications of the words "impure blood" under the rug. But since nationalism was widespread and encouraged in that zeitgeist, and considering the context of a foreign invasion in which the lyrics were written, I am way more inclined to assume that the "impure blood" is that of the "ferocious soldiers" coming for the French.
  - rawgabbit 4y ago
    Well, as the song warns that foreign soldiers will come slit the throats of our women and children... I agree with your interpretation.
  - btat1-2 4y ago
    First, Remember it was written in 1792 for the army of the French revolution. I'm French, I've heard a lot of of explanations about these words since I'm a child. Here's one of them: https://fr.quora.com/La-Marseillaise-contient-Quun-sang-impur-abreuve-nos-sillons-que-veut-dire-ici-un-sang-impur?share=1 https://fr.quora.com/La-Marseillaise-contient-Quun-sang-impu.... Sorry for the French text. This is a question that is sometimes very much discussed in France. Always in French : https://www.uneautremarseillaisepourlafrance.fr/blog/2015/12/le-sang-impur-de-la-marseillaise-na-jamais-ete-celui-des-francais/ https://www.uneautremarseillaisepourlafrance.fr/blog/2015/12...
  - bsaul 4y ago
    It looks like i got fooled by that alternate theory which gained a lot of popularity in the last 10 years, but is apparently fake.. Sorry about that.
wefarrell 4y ago
Ironically Casablanca was produced as a b-movie and marks the hight of the studio system. It didn't have a huge budget and it was rushed out to coincide with the allied invasion of North Africa.
- coderdd 4y ago
  We watched it recently after decades of hearing how great a film it was.. it was a superficial letdown instead.
  - wefarrell 4y ago
    It invented a lot of common cliches and tropes that are frequently used in other movies so in many ways it's a victim of its own success. For example in Star Wars the planet of Tatooine is Casablanca and the Cantina is Rick's Cafe.
  - barrkel 4y ago
    Full of cliches, right? (/s -- victim of its own success...)
    - chipotle_coyote 4y ago
      Yep. I've joked a fair amount that watching Casablanca now is very likely to make you think "this is full of clichés" until you realize, "wait, this is where all these clichés actually started, isn't it?"
      - cardiffspaceman 4y ago
        Similar to attending a play from The Repertory and hearing all the quotes that originate from it. Especially Shakespeare. But also the rest of the usual suspects. I'm shocked (Shocked!) to learn that movies borrow from Casablanca or Shakespeare.
hairofadog 4y ago
Many of the extras (including Madeleine Lebeau, whose face is arguably the symbol of that scene) had recently fled Nazi occupation in Europe, so their emotions were genuine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Lebeau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Lebeau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film)#Cast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film)#Cast
smcl 4y ago
I mean, God Save The King/Queen is not exactly passive either. For a period it briefly had a mask-off moment, where my people were to be "crushed": > Lord, grant that Marshal Wade, > May by thy mighty aid, > Victory bring. > May he sedition hush, > and like a torrent rush, > Rebellious Scots to crush, > God save the King. So that's nice, when your own national anthem called for you to be crushed. This verse is not used anymore, but the UK national anthem is obviously not popular in Scotland. I have never learned the lyrics to it and haven't the faintest interest in doing so. For me it starts "God save our something Queen, bleeh bleh bleh bleeeeeeh bleh bleh, god save our queen..." I know "Kde domov můj" more than I know that song.
- jan_Inkepa 4y ago
  I feel like a lot of national anthems have some bits that people gloss over, or have quietly done away with. Part of the charm innit. The Irish national song talks about the 'Saxon foe' in the English version[1] (the English version isn't normally the one sung, and only the chorus of said song is the national anthem proper). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amhrán_na_bhFiann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amhrán_na_bhFiann
  - smcl 4y ago
    Yeah it's possible that by now many anthems don't truly mean what they currently or originally said, or reference things that are kinda irrelevant today. They're just rousing words that fit a tune, and people sorta go along with it. And tbh as I said the UK anthem doesn't currently openly call for my slaughter and I don't live in fear that I'll be persecuted by the UK government on account of my national identity. But I think it's one thing to have a "Remember this external foe we defeated in our independence struggle" section in your anthem and another to have had one saying "A very large part of our nation must be defeated and its people subjugated", particularly if you are one of those people
    - eru 4y ago
      The Dutch national anthem has a part that pronounces the narrator to be proud to be of German blood..
neves 4y ago
I really like the fact that Rick represents USA.
givemeethekeys 4y ago
By contrast, the Russian national anthem just calls their own country awesome over and over again.
qbasic_forever 4y ago
Watch Chaplin's The Great Dictator and it's really amazing when you realize it came out in 1940 and was created in the late 30's, right when Hitler was seizing power and starting WW2. Chaplin was a genius and realized the most powerful way to hurt Hitler was to make him look like a fool and mock him. Its monologue is an equally unforgettable scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7GY1Xg6X20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7GY1Xg6X20
xwolfi 4y ago
At the same time it was a military song sung by soldiers to motivate them during long marches... I like the Marseillaise but all the martial songs are martial.

by lkbm 4y ago

baud147258 4y ago

> They're not singing "God save the king", but rather "we will water our fields with the blood of our enemies." Well, when the Marseillaise was written, they were about to kill the king, forgo any reference to God and were watering fields with the blood of their enemies (and French soldiers), so it was appropriate, no?

Juliate 4y ago
The song was written in April 1792 in the context of the declaration of war from France to Austria. The then very recent constitutional monarchy fell in August. The king trial began in November and even then, although death was requested by some, it was not an evidence yet. Death was voted with a small majority in January.
kergonath 4y ago
It was complicated. It was a constitutional monarchy at the time, and killing the king was at least one sub-revolution away. Seriously, there were many, many ways he could have avoided being executed. The Revolutions podcast has a decent summary of all of it, including Louis XVI’s many mis-calculations and stupid PR mistakes. If you can call “a summary” 20 hours worth of podcast. They were at war with half of Europe though, and directly threatened by the Austrian army, amongst others.
- rodgerd 4y ago
  Much like the Tsars and Charles I and James I, the French monarchs of the time seem determined to escalate until it got them killed. Modern billionaires could probably do with some history lessons.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    You’re right, it’s like something that did not happen in their lifetimes will not happen ever. To be fair to old Louis though, he did learn from the English civil war: he read Hume’s History of England and was well aware of how Charles I got killed. He tried very hard not to be as inflexible. So instead he got killed for going with the wind and saying yes too often, to the wrong people. And trying to flee, which was really un-patriotic, completely sank the legitimacy of the constitutional monarchy, and opened the door for the radicals.

jcranmer 4y ago

> It's intense, and as mentioned towards the end of this analysis, the actual words of the anthem are brutal. They're not singing "God save the king", but rather "we will water our fields with the blood of our enemies." La Marseillaise, if you boil it down to a single sentence, is basically "Fight on, Frenchmen... because we are utterly screwed if you don't."--almost all of the violence in the song is about the violence directed towards the French by the various coalitions arrayed against it at that time. (Also extremely notable for a national anthem of that period, it never specifically identifies an enemy--contrast that to the dueling German anthem in the film, which is a rather explicitly anti-French anthem.)

pmontra 4y ago
Or the Italian one which is anti-Austrian.
- smcl 4y ago
  But in doing so it features some solidarity with the Polish :D > Son giunchi che piegano (Mercenary swords) > le spade vendute (they're feeble reeds) > già l'Aquila d'Austria (The Austrian eagle) > le penne ha perdute. (Has already lost its plumes) > Il sangue d'Italia, (The blood of Italy) > il sangue Polacco, (and the Polish blood) > bevé, col cosacco, (It drank, along with the Cossack) > ma il cor le bruciò (But it burned its heart) ... this is actually reciprocated in the Polish anthem: > Marsz, marsz, Dąbrowski, (March, march, Dąbrowski) > Z ziemi włoskiej do Polski. (From the Italian land to Poland) > Za twoim przewodem (Under your command) > Złączym się z narodem. (We shall rejoin the nation)
  - andreareina 4y ago
    Translation on the first two verses is reversed
Mlller 4y ago
> contrast that to the dueling German anthem in the film, which is a rather explicitly anti-French anthem Yes, OTOH it seems to have a mere passive, defensive spirit: “a guardian of the river” – “the watch on the Rhine” – “protects the sacred border of the land” – “remain”,[1] written afraid of annexation: “Repeated French efforts to annex the Left Bank of the Rhine began with the devastating wars of King Louis XIV. French forces carried out massive scorched earth campaigns in the German south-west. This policy was fully implemented during the Napoleonic Wars with the creation of the Confederation of the Rhine in 1806–1813. In the two centuries from the Thirty Years' War to the final defeat of Napoleon I, the German inhabitants of lands by the Rhine suffered from repeated French invasions. The defeat and exile of Napoleon gave the Germans some respite, but during the Rhine Crisis of 1840, French prime minister Adolphe Thiers advanced the claim that the Upper and Middle Rhine River should serve as his country's "natural eastern border". The member states of the German Confederation feared that France was resuming her annexationist designs.”[2] Maybe itʼs even meant as a signal of dishonesty that it is sung by soldiers whose army didnʼt watch at the Rhine but occupied France brutally? Anyway, I donʼt intend to praise the Wacht am Rhein, itʼs certainly not great poetry, rather a rattling and clattering from the dustbin of history. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein#Lyrics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein#Lyrics [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein#Origin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein#Origin

dmitriid 4y ago

There's a scene that's a jusxtaposition to Casablanca's (and bow I realise it may have been intended as such): Tomorrow Belongs To Me from Cabaret. It's intense, chilling, and ultimately frightening.

rospaya 4y ago
It's brilliant and I always thought it shows the way something innocent can be appropriated, both the kid and the song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv0jav4lNsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv0jav4lNsk
- cardiffspaceman 4y ago
  Ironically it was written by Caberet's authors.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mytailorisrich 4y ago

As it happens La Marseillaise was originally the war song of the French Rhine Army, which was led by a German-born (Bavarian) field Marshal at the time, and was written after France declared war to Austria. This was long before German unification and the head-on rivalry it created.

bsaul 4y ago

it's actually a common misunderstanding (even amongst french) : the "impure" blood the french anthem is talking about is their own blood, not the one from their ennemies. Nobility was calling them impure (since not from noble blood), and they reversed it to something to be proud of (kind of).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lou1306 4y ago
Are there any reputable sources for that interpretation? At face value, it seems like a flimsy attempt at sweeping the unfortunate implications of the words "impure blood" under the rug. But since nationalism was widespread and encouraged in that zeitgeist, and considering the context of a foreign invasion in which the lyrics were written, I am way more inclined to assume that the "impure blood" is that of the "ferocious soldiers" coming for the French.
- rawgabbit 4y ago
  Well, as the song warns that foreign soldiers will come slit the throats of our women and children... I agree with your interpretation.
- btat1-2 4y ago
  First, Remember it was written in 1792 for the army of the French revolution. I'm French, I've heard a lot of of explanations about these words since I'm a child. Here's one of them: https://fr.quora.com/La-Marseillaise-contient-Quun-sang-impur-abreuve-nos-sillons-que-veut-dire-ici-un-sang-impur?share=1 https://fr.quora.com/La-Marseillaise-contient-Quun-sang-impu.... Sorry for the French text. This is a question that is sometimes very much discussed in France. Always in French : https://www.uneautremarseillaisepourlafrance.fr/blog/2015/12/le-sang-impur-de-la-marseillaise-na-jamais-ete-celui-des-francais/ https://www.uneautremarseillaisepourlafrance.fr/blog/2015/12...
- bsaul 4y ago
  It looks like i got fooled by that alternate theory which gained a lot of popularity in the last 10 years, but is apparently fake.. Sorry about that.

wefarrell 4y ago

Ironically Casablanca was produced as a b-movie and marks the hight of the studio system. It didn't have a huge budget and it was rushed out to coincide with the allied invasion of North Africa.

coderdd 4y ago
We watched it recently after decades of hearing how great a film it was.. it was a superficial letdown instead.
- wefarrell 4y ago
  It invented a lot of common cliches and tropes that are frequently used in other movies so in many ways it's a victim of its own success. For example in Star Wars the planet of Tatooine is Casablanca and the Cantina is Rick's Cafe.
- barrkel 4y ago
  Full of cliches, right? (/s -- victim of its own success...)
  - chipotle_coyote 4y ago
    Yep. I've joked a fair amount that watching Casablanca now is very likely to make you think "this is full of clichés" until you realize, "wait, this is where all these clichés actually started, isn't it?"
    - cardiffspaceman 4y ago
      Similar to attending a play from The Repertory and hearing all the quotes that originate from it. Especially Shakespeare. But also the rest of the usual suspects. I'm shocked (Shocked!) to learn that movies borrow from Casablanca or Shakespeare.

hairofadog 4y ago

Many of the extras (including Madeleine Lebeau, whose face is arguably the symbol of that scene) had recently fled Nazi occupation in Europe, so their emotions were genuine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Lebeau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Lebeau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film)#Cast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_(film)#Cast

smcl 4y ago

I mean, God Save The King/Queen is not exactly passive either. For a period it briefly had a mask-off moment, where my people were to be "crushed": > Lord, grant that Marshal Wade, > May by thy mighty aid, > Victory bring. > May he sedition hush, > and like a torrent rush, > Rebellious Scots to crush, > God save the King. So that's nice, when your own national anthem called for you to be crushed. This verse is not used anymore, but the UK national anthem is obviously not popular in Scotland. I have never learned the lyrics to it and haven't the faintest interest in doing so. For me it starts "God save our something Queen, bleeh bleh bleh bleeeeeeh bleh bleh, god save our queen..." I know "Kde domov můj" more than I know that song.

jan_Inkepa 4y ago
I feel like a lot of national anthems have some bits that people gloss over, or have quietly done away with. Part of the charm innit. The Irish national song talks about the 'Saxon foe' in the English version[1] (the English version isn't normally the one sung, and only the chorus of said song is the national anthem proper). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amhrán_na_bhFiann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amhrán_na_bhFiann
- smcl 4y ago
  Yeah it's possible that by now many anthems don't truly mean what they currently or originally said, or reference things that are kinda irrelevant today. They're just rousing words that fit a tune, and people sorta go along with it. And tbh as I said the UK anthem doesn't currently openly call for my slaughter and I don't live in fear that I'll be persecuted by the UK government on account of my national identity. But I think it's one thing to have a "Remember this external foe we defeated in our independence struggle" section in your anthem and another to have had one saying "A very large part of our nation must be defeated and its people subjugated", particularly if you are one of those people
  - eru 4y ago
    The Dutch national anthem has a part that pronounces the narrator to be proud to be of German blood..

neves 4y ago

I really like the fact that Rick represents USA.

givemeethekeys 4y ago

By contrast, the Russian national anthem just calls their own country awesome over and over again.

qbasic_forever 4y ago

Watch Chaplin's The Great Dictator and it's really amazing when you realize it came out in 1940 and was created in the late 30's, right when Hitler was seizing power and starting WW2. Chaplin was a genius and realized the most powerful way to hurt Hitler was to make him look like a fool and mock him. Its monologue is an equally unforgettable scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7GY1Xg6X20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7GY1Xg6X20

xwolfi 4y ago

At the same time it was a military song sung by soldiers to motivate them during long marches... I like the Marseillaise but all the martial songs are martial.