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Oh it was peaceful when no one was stopping “protestors” from breaking whatever laws whenever they wanted? I’m shocked. The CHOP experienced four shootings in

Oh it was peaceful when no one was stopping “protestors” from breaking whatever laws whenever they wanted? I’m shocked. The CHOP experienced four shootings in 10 days. A 16-year-old and a 19-year-old died in the shootings, and four other people were shot, including a 14-year-old boy. Thank goodness the police weren’t around - it was important and necessary for those people to die. Seattle right now just reminds me of a tragedy of the commons example or like a nice car gifted to a teenager. Beautiful but not being taken care of by functional responsible adults.

seadan83 4y ago
> Oh it was peaceful when no one was stopping “protestors” from breaking whatever laws whenever they wanted? Yes, the streets were no longer filled with tear gas and a small army of mostly men in armor and 4 foot batons hitting protestors. "Don't kill them, but hit them hard" https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-patrol-apologizes-after-officer-tells-his-team-dont-kill-them-but-hit-them-hard-in-reference-to-seattle-protesters/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-p... "From June 1 to June 8, protesters and police in riot gear face off near SPD’s East Precinct headquarters. Seattle’s mayor would announce a temporary ban on tear gas, but the situation had already developed into a tinderbox." "Tammy Morales: If police had just let people, who were protesting police brutality by the way, take up space and use their deescalation training instead of using tear gas and flash-bangs, things wouldn’t have escalated." "Elizabeth Turnbull: I was one of those people who felt the feeling of acid in my lungs and the pain in my eyes, running with all these people in the dark, because we’re closing our eyes." https://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-city-life/2021/06/history-of-chop-capitol-hill-protests-seattle https://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-city-life/2021/06/histor... So yes, Seattle went from a warzone on Capitol hill that went on for a solid week to calm. That calm lasted for a full week - day & night. Eventually the CHOP did become unsafe at night, after that first week -due to an influx of homeless & campers. There is an open controversy as well whether the police made the CHOP more dangerous by funneling gangs and dangerous people into it: "Activists claim that police allowed the violence to seep in by being absent from streets surrounding the CHOP." https://theintercept.com/2020/07/02/seattle-chop-zone-police/ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/02/seattle-chop-zone-police... There is about 1 person fatally shot every 4 days in Seattle. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/not-seeing-it-slow-down-at-all-seattle-hits-grim-mark-of-13-homicides-in-1st-quarter-of-2022/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/not-se... Ergo, week 2, the CHOP became essentially a homeless encampment, infiltrated by gangs and was less a protest zone at that point. Even with that going on, the level of violence observed there is still not strongly different than the average level of violence otherwise seen through-out Seattle in normal times. This is in contrast to dozens of daily injuries as police rioted against protestors.
- Pigalowda 4y ago
  Week 2! That’s nothing! The site degenerated so quickly because it attracted people who did not want to obey laws - criminals, gangs, and homeless as you say. That’s just entropy. That’s such rapid decomposition. I hope the original message of CHOP was worth those more than average amount of deaths.
seadan83 4y ago
Straw arguments aside, my point is you can't say "BLM rioted" (at least in Seattle where I have 1st person experience). BLM held protests during the day and the marches were peaceful. BLM did not run the CHOP, they had speakers there, but did not run it. Saying "BLM rioted" is propaganda and seeks to draw a false equivalence. It's commonly lost that the experience in Seattle is very different from what happened in Portland. In Seattle the police moved in and cracked skulls for a week, so I agree "not being taken care of by functional responsible adults." Sorry to call a response straw arguments, but nothing of what I have said is refuted by acknowledging violence occurred in the CHOP. Though, that is not without its own nuance. The conservative media narrative is that the CHOP was lawless, was like Portland with buildings being burned every night, and before it was non-stop riots on the streets. (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/15/dont-listen-to-fox-heres-whats-really-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/15/dont-liste...) As a first person account, and not as talking point, this was just not the case. The police responded with an aggregate violence that was greater than the night-time-post-protest issues that were happening - the CHOP brought immediate relief and was pretty close to a festival atmosphere for its entire first week (again, not as a talking point, as observed - the CHOP was in our commute path to work and we traversed it daily). I don't want to toss talking points back and forth. An important difference of perspective is the role of the police presence. In Seattle, the police were largely inflaming the situation (1) and their departure defused it (for some time until, other problems cropped up). This is an important difference compared to the narrative that the police were doing too little (they were doing quite a lot). (1) https://www.king5.com/article/news/community/facing-race/seattle-police-department-recommendations-manage-protests/281-b13dd8c9-c653-487f-a587-4154a868a08e https://www.king5.com/article/news/community/facing-race/sea... "Without working with protesters to understand their goals and work toward mutually agreeable solutions, the department continued to make tactical decisions that did not de-escalate the situation,” the report says." Coming from 'k5', a very conservative viewpoint, saying "did not de-escalate" is another way of saying they were doing nothing to help things, but make them worse. The after-action report of the police response that the article is reporting on largely found low incidents of police brutality (a controversial finding), but the police in a number of ways could have avoided antagonizing the crowd. *Which is all to say, in Seattle, had the police protected the protests & protestors, it would have all been different.

seadan83 4y ago

> Oh it was peaceful when no one was stopping “protestors” from breaking whatever laws whenever they wanted? Yes, the streets were no longer filled with tear gas and a small army of mostly men in armor and 4 foot batons hitting protestors. "Don't kill them, but hit them hard" https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-patrol-apologizes-after-officer-tells-his-team-dont-kill-them-but-hit-them-hard-in-reference-to-seattle-protesters/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/washington-state-p... "From June 1 to June 8, protesters and police in riot gear face off near SPD’s East Precinct headquarters. Seattle’s mayor would announce a temporary ban on tear gas, but the situation had already developed into a tinderbox." "Tammy Morales: If police had just let people, who were protesting police brutality by the way, take up space and use their deescalation training instead of using tear gas and flash-bangs, things wouldn’t have escalated." "Elizabeth Turnbull: I was one of those people who felt the feeling of acid in my lungs and the pain in my eyes, running with all these people in the dark, because we’re closing our eyes." https://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-city-life/2021/06/history-of-chop-capitol-hill-protests-seattle https://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-city-life/2021/06/histor... So yes, Seattle went from a warzone on Capitol hill that went on for a solid week to calm. That calm lasted for a full week - day & night. Eventually the CHOP did become unsafe at night, after that first week -due to an influx of homeless & campers. There is an open controversy as well whether the police made the CHOP more dangerous by funneling gangs and dangerous people into it: "Activists claim that police allowed the violence to seep in by being absent from streets surrounding the CHOP." https://theintercept.com/2020/07/02/seattle-chop-zone-police/ https://theintercept.com/2020/07/02/seattle-chop-zone-police... There is about 1 person fatally shot every 4 days in Seattle. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/not-seeing-it-slow-down-at-all-seattle-hits-grim-mark-of-13-homicides-in-1st-quarter-of-2022/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/not-se... Ergo, week 2, the CHOP became essentially a homeless encampment, infiltrated by gangs and was less a protest zone at that point. Even with that going on, the level of violence observed there is still not strongly different than the average level of violence otherwise seen through-out Seattle in normal times. This is in contrast to dozens of daily injuries as police rioted against protestors.

Pigalowda 4y ago
Week 2! That’s nothing! The site degenerated so quickly because it attracted people who did not want to obey laws - criminals, gangs, and homeless as you say. That’s just entropy. That’s such rapid decomposition. I hope the original message of CHOP was worth those more than average amount of deaths.

seadan83 4y ago

Straw arguments aside, my point is you can't say "BLM rioted" (at least in Seattle where I have 1st person experience). BLM held protests during the day and the marches were peaceful. BLM did not run the CHOP, they had speakers there, but did not run it. Saying "BLM rioted" is propaganda and seeks to draw a false equivalence. It's commonly lost that the experience in Seattle is very different from what happened in Portland. In Seattle the police moved in and cracked skulls for a week, so I agree "not being taken care of by functional responsible adults." Sorry to call a response straw arguments, but nothing of what I have said is refuted by acknowledging violence occurred in the CHOP. Though, that is not without its own nuance. The conservative media narrative is that the CHOP was lawless, was like Portland with buildings being burned every night, and before it was non-stop riots on the streets. (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/15/dont-listen-to-fox-heres-whats-really-going-on-in-seattles-protest-zone-321507 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/15/dont-liste...) As a first person account, and not as talking point, this was just not the case. The police responded with an aggregate violence that was greater than the night-time-post-protest issues that were happening - the CHOP brought immediate relief and was pretty close to a festival atmosphere for its entire first week (again, not as a talking point, as observed - the CHOP was in our commute path to work and we traversed it daily). I don't want to toss talking points back and forth. An important difference of perspective is the role of the police presence. In Seattle, the police were largely inflaming the situation (1) and their departure defused it (for some time until, other problems cropped up). This is an important difference compared to the narrative that the police were doing too little (they were doing quite a lot). (1) https://www.king5.com/article/news/community/facing-race/seattle-police-department-recommendations-manage-protests/281-b13dd8c9-c653-487f-a587-4154a868a08e https://www.king5.com/article/news/community/facing-race/sea... "Without working with protesters to understand their goals and work toward mutually agreeable solutions, the department continued to make tactical decisions that did not de-escalate the situation,” the report says." Coming from 'k5', a very conservative viewpoint, saying "did not de-escalate" is another way of saying they were doing nothing to help things, but make them worse. The after-action report of the police response that the article is reporting on largely found low incidents of police brutality (a controversial finding), but the police in a number of ways could have avoided antagonizing the crowd. *Which is all to say, in Seattle, had the police protected the protests & protestors, it would have all been different.