8 ms·

> But there was only one moment that really ruptured my suspension of disbelief while reading this whole gonzo book: a scene in which a character from “the auto

by dkarl 4y ago

> But there was only one moment that really ruptured my suspension of disbelief while reading this whole gonzo book: a scene in which a character from “the autonomous city of Austin” remembers pushing his way onto that city’s subway. Obviously, one can accept that Austin would become a separatist people’s republic within a fractured Texas. But the idea of the “Austin Metro” operating there, even fifty years from now? Context for non-Texans: Capital Metro is the name of Austin's public transit system, and the current plans for our passenger rail network include at least one large underground station ([0], [1]), so I think this comment is tongue-in-cheek. It's a relatively small component of a relatively small system compared to the iconic subways in other cities, but from a local perspective, a lot of people are having a bit of a "whoah I can't believe this is happening here" reaction, and I think that's what she is referencing. [0] https://communityimpact.com/austin/central-austin/transportation/2021/07/14/capital-metro-unveils-initial-plans-for-six-underground-rail-stations-in-downtown-austin/ https://communityimpact.com/austin/central-austin/transporta... [1] https://www.fox7austin.com/news/capital-metro-subway-tunnel-downtown-austin-texas https://www.fox7austin.com/news/capital-metro-subway-tunnel-...

MS90 4y ago
There's also the fact that there's only about six inches of dirt here, dig any deeper than that and you hit solid limestone. That's why none of the houses here have basements.
- achenatx 4y ago
  there is no one reason why we dont have basements, but it is more likely to do with the fact that up north they have to dig deep (3-4 ft) for the frost line. If you are digging that deep anyway, you might as well go an additional 4-5 ft and build a basement. Excavating limestone isnt that hard. Instead of one day to dig a basement in soil, it would take about 14 days to dig a typical basement in limestone (based on digging pools in limestone). It costs about 1500/day for the crew/equipment so an extra 21K for the excavation. East austin has no limestone and basements are still rare.
  - MS90 4y ago
    It might not be 'that hard' to excavate limestone, but an additional 21,000 dollars added to the cost along with 14x longer work time is not an insignificant difference. East Austin doesn't have them because of the unstable clay that expands and contracts with rains, same reason the track surface at COTA has had so many issues. The ground doesn't stay put. Couple those things with the frost line issue you mentioned, along with the likelihood of flooding, and it probably comes down to the fact that it's just too much work to be worth it.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      The reason you don't have basements is because you don't have to worry about the Frontline. If you did, land would be worth $21k less per lot - to make up for the cost to dig a basement.
    - sangnoir 4y ago
      > East Austin doesn't have them because of the unstable clay that expands and contracts with rains Which is why most people water their foundations to ensure the soild maintains steady state of dampness- rain or shine.
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    It may be different in Hill Country but in Dallas and Houston the water table is just too high in most places to make a basement realistic.
    - cestith 4y ago
      There are basements here in Houston but they're rare and typically have multiple sumps and pumps.
  - vandahm 4y ago
    > there is no one reason why we dont have basements, but it is more likely to do with the fact that up north they have to dig deep (3-4 ft) for the frost line. If you are digging that deep anyway, you might as well go an additional 4-5 ft and build a basement. In Minnesota, where I live, basements are definitely a byproduct of structural requirements. You have to dig 48 inches so that your foundation is under the frost line. But also consider that you don't want your front door to be at ground level, because then it might not open after a massive snowfall. So if you add up all that vertical space, you get about 7 feet, which is about the ceiling height of an unfinished basement.
- dkarl 4y ago
  That may be true in some areas of Austin, but in most cases, it's about cost and expectations. Austin straddles the border between dry, rocky west Texas and wetter, black soil east Texas, but houses have traditionally been built without basements no matter what kind of soil they were built on, in Austin and in other parts of Texas. These days, a lot of newer, more expensive houses are built with basements to maximize usable square footage.
  - Fatnino 4y ago
    Houses used to be small, built of wood, and hardly attached to the ground at all. It was fairly common practice to pick up a house and move it to another plot nearby. I think once cities get older and more ossified in their shape is when basements start to appear. Assuming there is no other reason to avoid it like flooding, hard rock, earthquakes, etc.
    - bin_bash 4y ago
      > It was fairly common practice to pick up a house and move it to another plot nearby. To me that sounded fishy but I looked it up and you seem to be right! https://www.brownstonedetectives.com/the-ancient-art-of-moving-houses-1900/ https://www.brownstonedetectives.com/the-ancient-art-of-movi...
- pram 4y ago
  Yeah no kidding, when I had a tree planted in my front yard they had to use jackhammers to make the hole deep enough. I had no idea.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bin_bash 4y ago
  Uh you have that backwards. Limestone is rock, but it’s an easy one to carve through (unlike Manhattan Schist, for example). It also has an advantage over soil that the remaining bits don’t need much extra support for the load above. This doc talks about it: https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/11/21/why-texas-doesnt-have-subways/ https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/11/21/why-texas-doesn...
  - MS90 4y ago
    It also has a disadvantage in that it's extremely porous and allows water to seep through it, which expands and contracts with temperature changes and causes the limestone to crack. There's areas around town where roads have been cut through hills, and if you drive through these after a big rainfall you can literally see water pouring out the side of the rock face. Chunks of limestone breaking off and falling onto the side of the road is a pretty regular occurrence. There's other issues, too, such as the lake that runs through the middle of the city, the underground rivers and cave networks in the area, and the unstable clay on the East side of town that expands and contracts with rain, causing all sorts of problems.
    - bin_bash 4y ago
      Do you actually have any sources or are you just making assumptions based on how you see limestone behave on the surface? I don’t have sources myself but to me the porous nature of limestone seems like a benefit since water would easily flow to the water table instead of flooding in the tunnel. Erosion seems like it would be a far bigger problem for tunnels in soil or sand than it would be for limestone.
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        Water generally flows down. If you have a high water table building basements is usually foolish. Limestone, because it dissolves in contact with acidic water (and rainwater is slightly acidic) is also prone to sinkholes. Best to keep the ground stable by not exposing it to more water. It happens so often in Florida there’s an FAQ page. https://floridadep.gov/fgs/sinkholes https://floridadep.gov/fgs/sinkholes
GoToThePubMate 4y ago
Austin Metro? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Metro
thebradbain 4y ago
> But the idea of the “Austin Metro” operating there, even fifty years from now? Might be worth sharing that in 2020 Austin voters approved via ballot referendum (58% to 42%) what's likely to be the largest expansion of public transit this decade. It authorized $7.1 billion in initial bond funds and established a dedicated sales tax to establish ongoing funding for 4 light rail lines, 1 subway, a dedicated BRT system, and a complete transformation of their public transit system. https://projectconnect.com/ https://projectconnect.com/ The initial phase itself is already deep into the design and bid stage, groundbreaking should happen in the next couple years. https://projectconnect.com/docs/librariesprovider2/maps/pcon_system-map-august-2021.pdf?sfvrsn=768e4c75_2 https://projectconnect.com/docs/librariesprovider2/maps/pcon... Even the state government of Texas gave its permission to tunnel under a portion of what is state-owned land for the subway for a 99-year annual lease of $1, which some Austin advocates originally feared would be leverage that the state legislature would try to use to hold up the project.
- dkarl 4y ago
  My theory about what turned the tide in favor of local support for transit is that business organizations were loud and clear about broadcasting the message, "We need this for Austin to be competitive." More than 42% of voters here have a distaste for density, public transit, and urban living in general, but a significant number of them were swayed to vote for the plan, and I think it was because of this pro-business message. These are folks who dislike cities but live in the suburbs and make their living from the urban economy, and they were willing to set aside their distaste and vote for transit. Like I said, it's just my personal theory, but I was impressed with how vocal the business community was before the vote.
  - thebradbain 4y ago
    > These are folks who dislike cities but live in the suburbs and make their living from the urban economy, and they were willing to set aside their distaste and vote for transit The vote for the plan was purely within Austin city limits. The plan was not at all voted for by suburbanites, nor are they paid for by the suburbs (except for purchases those suburbanites make in Austin proper, generating sales tax revenue). > More than 42% of voters here have a distaste for density, public transit, and urban living in general Source, please? Because I doubt it. Austin has one of the most pro-urbanist city councils in Texas, and has densified at a rate most other cities have not over the past 20 years (and second only to Dallas and Houston in terms of nationwide growth). I'm a Texan myself, born and raised, and it's a completely different built environment than what it was even 10 years ago, and that's not by accident, but actual policy supported by voters. Skyscrapers, density, apartments, townhomes, rezonings in previous single-family-only enclaves – things California talks about in studies and papers and committees, Texas is actually doing (I've lived in Los Angeles for over 5 years now, and the sentiment here is much more anti-development than I see in Austin and Dallas, which is generally pro-build-it-and-they-will-come).

by dkarl 4y ago

MS90 4y ago

There's also the fact that there's only about six inches of dirt here, dig any deeper than that and you hit solid limestone. That's why none of the houses here have basements.

achenatx 4y ago
there is no one reason why we dont have basements, but it is more likely to do with the fact that up north they have to dig deep (3-4 ft) for the frost line. If you are digging that deep anyway, you might as well go an additional 4-5 ft and build a basement. Excavating limestone isnt that hard. Instead of one day to dig a basement in soil, it would take about 14 days to dig a typical basement in limestone (based on digging pools in limestone). It costs about 1500/day for the crew/equipment so an extra 21K for the excavation. East austin has no limestone and basements are still rare.
- MS90 4y ago
  It might not be 'that hard' to excavate limestone, but an additional 21,000 dollars added to the cost along with 14x longer work time is not an insignificant difference. East Austin doesn't have them because of the unstable clay that expands and contracts with rains, same reason the track surface at COTA has had so many issues. The ground doesn't stay put. Couple those things with the frost line issue you mentioned, along with the likelihood of flooding, and it probably comes down to the fact that it's just too much work to be worth it.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    The reason you don't have basements is because you don't have to worry about the Frontline. If you did, land would be worth $21k less per lot - to make up for the cost to dig a basement.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > East Austin doesn't have them because of the unstable clay that expands and contracts with rains Which is why most people water their foundations to ensure the soild maintains steady state of dampness- rain or shine.
- bin_bash 4y ago
  It may be different in Hill Country but in Dallas and Houston the water table is just too high in most places to make a basement realistic.
  - cestith 4y ago
    There are basements here in Houston but they're rare and typically have multiple sumps and pumps.
- vandahm 4y ago
  > there is no one reason why we dont have basements, but it is more likely to do with the fact that up north they have to dig deep (3-4 ft) for the frost line. If you are digging that deep anyway, you might as well go an additional 4-5 ft and build a basement. In Minnesota, where I live, basements are definitely a byproduct of structural requirements. You have to dig 48 inches so that your foundation is under the frost line. But also consider that you don't want your front door to be at ground level, because then it might not open after a massive snowfall. So if you add up all that vertical space, you get about 7 feet, which is about the ceiling height of an unfinished basement.
dkarl 4y ago
That may be true in some areas of Austin, but in most cases, it's about cost and expectations. Austin straddles the border between dry, rocky west Texas and wetter, black soil east Texas, but houses have traditionally been built without basements no matter what kind of soil they were built on, in Austin and in other parts of Texas. These days, a lot of newer, more expensive houses are built with basements to maximize usable square footage.
- Fatnino 4y ago
  Houses used to be small, built of wood, and hardly attached to the ground at all. It was fairly common practice to pick up a house and move it to another plot nearby. I think once cities get older and more ossified in their shape is when basements start to appear. Assuming there is no other reason to avoid it like flooding, hard rock, earthquakes, etc.
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    > It was fairly common practice to pick up a house and move it to another plot nearby. To me that sounded fishy but I looked it up and you seem to be right! https://www.brownstonedetectives.com/the-ancient-art-of-moving-houses-1900/ https://www.brownstonedetectives.com/the-ancient-art-of-movi...
pram 4y ago
Yeah no kidding, when I had a tree planted in my front yard they had to use jackhammers to make the hole deep enough. I had no idea.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bin_bash 4y ago
Uh you have that backwards. Limestone is rock, but it’s an easy one to carve through (unlike Manhattan Schist, for example). It also has an advantage over soil that the remaining bits don’t need much extra support for the load above. This doc talks about it: https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/11/21/why-texas-doesnt-have-subways/ https://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/11/21/why-texas-doesn...
- MS90 4y ago
  It also has a disadvantage in that it's extremely porous and allows water to seep through it, which expands and contracts with temperature changes and causes the limestone to crack. There's areas around town where roads have been cut through hills, and if you drive through these after a big rainfall you can literally see water pouring out the side of the rock face. Chunks of limestone breaking off and falling onto the side of the road is a pretty regular occurrence. There's other issues, too, such as the lake that runs through the middle of the city, the underground rivers and cave networks in the area, and the unstable clay on the East side of town that expands and contracts with rain, causing all sorts of problems.
  - bin_bash 4y ago
    Do you actually have any sources or are you just making assumptions based on how you see limestone behave on the surface? I don’t have sources myself but to me the porous nature of limestone seems like a benefit since water would easily flow to the water table instead of flooding in the tunnel. Erosion seems like it would be a far bigger problem for tunnels in soil or sand than it would be for limestone.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      Water generally flows down. If you have a high water table building basements is usually foolish. Limestone, because it dissolves in contact with acidic water (and rainwater is slightly acidic) is also prone to sinkholes. Best to keep the ground stable by not exposing it to more water. It happens so often in Florida there’s an FAQ page. https://floridadep.gov/fgs/sinkholes https://floridadep.gov/fgs/sinkholes

GoToThePubMate 4y ago

Austin Metro? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Metro

thebradbain 4y ago

> But the idea of the “Austin Metro” operating there, even fifty years from now? Might be worth sharing that in 2020 Austin voters approved via ballot referendum (58% to 42%) what's likely to be the largest expansion of public transit this decade. It authorized $7.1 billion in initial bond funds and established a dedicated sales tax to establish ongoing funding for 4 light rail lines, 1 subway, a dedicated BRT system, and a complete transformation of their public transit system. https://projectconnect.com/ https://projectconnect.com/ The initial phase itself is already deep into the design and bid stage, groundbreaking should happen in the next couple years. https://projectconnect.com/docs/librariesprovider2/maps/pcon_system-map-august-2021.pdf?sfvrsn=768e4c75_2 https://projectconnect.com/docs/librariesprovider2/maps/pcon... Even the state government of Texas gave its permission to tunnel under a portion of what is state-owned land for the subway for a 99-year annual lease of $1, which some Austin advocates originally feared would be leverage that the state legislature would try to use to hold up the project.

dkarl 4y ago
My theory about what turned the tide in favor of local support for transit is that business organizations were loud and clear about broadcasting the message, "We need this for Austin to be competitive." More than 42% of voters here have a distaste for density, public transit, and urban living in general, but a significant number of them were swayed to vote for the plan, and I think it was because of this pro-business message. These are folks who dislike cities but live in the suburbs and make their living from the urban economy, and they were willing to set aside their distaste and vote for transit. Like I said, it's just my personal theory, but I was impressed with how vocal the business community was before the vote.
- thebradbain 4y ago
  > These are folks who dislike cities but live in the suburbs and make their living from the urban economy, and they were willing to set aside their distaste and vote for transit The vote for the plan was purely within Austin city limits. The plan was not at all voted for by suburbanites, nor are they paid for by the suburbs (except for purchases those suburbanites make in Austin proper, generating sales tax revenue). > More than 42% of voters here have a distaste for density, public transit, and urban living in general Source, please? Because I doubt it. Austin has one of the most pro-urbanist city councils in Texas, and has densified at a rate most other cities have not over the past 20 years (and second only to Dallas and Houston in terms of nationwide growth). I'm a Texan myself, born and raised, and it's a completely different built environment than what it was even 10 years ago, and that's not by accident, but actual policy supported by voters. Skyscrapers, density, apartments, townhomes, rezonings in previous single-family-only enclaves – things California talks about in studies and papers and committees, Texas is actually doing (I've lived in Los Angeles for over 5 years now, and the sentiment here is much more anti-development than I see in Austin and Dallas, which is generally pro-build-it-and-they-will-come).