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> How can a legitimate domain owner tell other people to not use his name in GNS? > A: Names have no owners in GNS, so there cannot be a "legitimate" domain ow

> How can a legitimate domain owner tell other people to not use his name in GNS? > A: Names have no owners in GNS, so there cannot be a "legitimate" domain owner. Any user can claim any name (as his preferred name or "pseudonym") in his NICK record. Similarly, all other users can choose to ignore this preference and use a name of their choice (or even assign no name) for this user. This is confusing me. How is it not a problem that randoms can just claim other people's domains?

gertrunde 4y ago
From the doc, it appears that the name isn't the name. ;) There is a global name, which is a long non-human readable unique identifier. And there is a nickname, which is only really locally significant, although the zone can publish a preferred name, the local side doesn't have to respect it.
- hsn915 4y ago
  The whole point of DNS is for a human readable name to be globally recognized.
  - notRobot 4y ago
    Yes, that is the point of DNS, but that is not the point of GNS.
  - hansword 4y ago
    Think about how the hosts.txt file was originally used before the DNS. It's closer to that (with a lot of extra sophistication and 40+ year learning)
  - p4bl0 4y ago
    I have configured my browser to go to news.ycombinator.com when I type "hn" in its URL bar. The domain name could be anything even a b32 hash I wouldn't mind, I would still just type "hn". Granted, most people do not bother using this feature, but it is also true that most non-technical people don't even bother with typing a URL, they use a search engine as a proxy anyway. In fact it would be a good idea, ecologically, to have a system that educate its users to give their own nickname to website they visit often and use them rather than performing a search query. Especially if it is as simple as clicking a "bookmark as 'xxxxx'" with xxxxx being the default name of the service/website in your browser, with a TOFU principle :).
    - kevincox 4y ago
      Although almost all users just use a search engine. Actually typing in domains is dying (very slowly). I still do it occasionally for things written "in the real world" but this is slowly getting replaced with QR codes. The last main thing that I use domains for is verification (is this really "google.com"?) but even that is 1. Not effective (yes, I am definitely "goog1e.com") and 2. Mostly replaced by my browser doing the check for me (for example via my password manager which only fills in credentials for the correct domain).
      - p4bl0 4y ago
        > Although almost all users just use a search engine. This is literally what I'm saying and the main point I'm addressing in the second and third paragraph of the comment you are replying to. However, you make a very good point with QR code: this is another argument for why the actual domain name is not that important.
      - MichaelCollins 4y ago
        The apparent dichotomy of either using a search engine or typing out the full domain is confusing. What I do 99% of the time is type two or three letters into the address bar and let the rest of the address complete from my browser history. Giving those two or three letters to google to doesn't seem like it would do anything to improve the process, it's just a default that browsers foist on users because Google pays the browser developer for it.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        That is how people use domain names, but people are a very small subset of the DNS "customers" - all applications and websites hit DNS quite often.
      - latchkey 4y ago
        I stopped using qr codes when I realized how easy it is for someone to put a sticker over an existing code and send me to a phishing site. Certainly, I can do it super cautiously, but it definitely seems like an easy attack vector.
  - bluejekyll 4y ago
    That’s not always how DNS is used in practice. There are lots of different configurations where there’s a local portion that represents a non-global name. This isn’t necessarily best practice, mind you, because it can have security implications if the name doesn’t resolve locally but does remotely. To make this practice work consistently, the .local TLD is specifically reserved for such use cases in mDNS. Now I should mention, all TLDs should be reserved even if only used locally because of above security implications, but there’s nothing preventing people from abusing DNS in a local setting to resolve names differently than they do remotely.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    The only thing that needs to be globally recognized are public keys. The distribution of those public-key/identity pairs is a social problem that the existing DNS/PKI does not solve but rather makes worse. Users anonymously subscribe to root zones that they trust, or act as their own authority.
  - BeefWellington 4y ago
    DNS is just a system whereby you can translate any name to any IP address. Global has nothing to do with it. In fact, by nature DNS is almost always local (you go to your chosen DNS server's IP to get the data). Your DNS server is free to lie to you about the real IP for www.google.com. The thing that protects you here is TLS and PKI and our agreed-upon global trust system of registrars and certificate authorities that have been built up. DNS itself is just one (very abuse-able) cog in that wheel.
    - walls 4y ago
      So it's basically useless without adding governance which eliminates the entire point of this project.
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        No, you get to choose your governance rather than it being chosen for you. That seems like an really important thing when we normally talk about governance.
        naasking 4y ago
        > No, you get to choose your governance rather than it being chosen for you. For instance, if you live in China.
  - schanzen 4y ago
    Yes, and you could apply the DNS governance model to GNS. For example: Let's say GNS gets traction. Users and implementation could provide a list of start zone mappings which are managed by ICANN and use this as a default. Effectively, this will give users global names. Just like now. .de will be managed by DENIC, .fr will be managed by AFNIC etc. BUT: GNS is designed to allow to override such a setting. The ICANN root zone may be delegated by the user into the .icann namespace. So, locally, example.com in DNS would become example.com.icann in GNS. Alternatively, the user may also override ANY TLD mapping provided by the ICANN configuration - or individual domains - if needed. For example, if a domain is seized or otherwise censored in DNS.
  - PhineasRex 4y ago
    All decentralized domain systems by definition do not address universality and thus require a change in user behavior. The core idea is a return to pre-internet naming where "Sal's Pizza" refers to a different establishment in different cities. There are pros and cons to this approach but the point is not to exactly replicate DNS.
shakna 4y ago
Unlike DNS, GNS doesn't require that only one nick be bound to a domain to be resolved. [0] There's a series of preferences for the order of resolution, which means that you can prioritise your friend over someone else. The domain itself can have a preference, but the user is free to ignore it. Which does mean that a domain is not as definitive as it is, in the case of DNS. [0] https://lsd.gnunet.org/lsd0001/#name-nick-2 https://lsd.gnunet.org/lsd0001/#name-nick-2
schanzen 4y ago
This is a complex question. In order to use GNS "like" DNS, you need a similar Root Zone governance. See also https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#name-start-zones https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#n... and https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#name-start-zone-configuration https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#n... However, the protocol does not really care what kind of governance is chosen or present. In order to understand this a bit better I invite anyone to read section 1-3 of https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html
- zerocrates 4y ago
  I mean, DNS also doesn't care at a protocol level about governance, right? It's just the actual, practical DNS system that everybody actually uses which does.
  - schanzen 4y ago
    Yes. And it is totally possible that a "common" and default use case with GNS looks just like DNS. The spec just does not mandate the governance. In fact, it mandates implementations to honor user-chosen configurations for petname overrides. (See my other comments)
p4bl0 4y ago
This is how it is in I2P too, and it works okay there :).
smackmybishop 4y ago
Zooko's Triangle might be a factor here. Sounds like they chose 'distributed' over 'human-meaningful.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle
- schanzen 4y ago
  No, we chose the petname/SDSI solution to the problem: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#name-overview https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#n...

gertrunde 4y ago

From the doc, it appears that the name isn't the name. ;) There is a global name, which is a long non-human readable unique identifier. And there is a nickname, which is only really locally significant, although the zone can publish a preferred name, the local side doesn't have to respect it.

hsn915 4y ago
The whole point of DNS is for a human readable name to be globally recognized.
- notRobot 4y ago
  Yes, that is the point of DNS, but that is not the point of GNS.
- hansword 4y ago
  Think about how the hosts.txt file was originally used before the DNS. It's closer to that (with a lot of extra sophistication and 40+ year learning)
- p4bl0 4y ago
  I have configured my browser to go to news.ycombinator.com when I type "hn" in its URL bar. The domain name could be anything even a b32 hash I wouldn't mind, I would still just type "hn". Granted, most people do not bother using this feature, but it is also true that most non-technical people don't even bother with typing a URL, they use a search engine as a proxy anyway. In fact it would be a good idea, ecologically, to have a system that educate its users to give their own nickname to website they visit often and use them rather than performing a search query. Especially if it is as simple as clicking a "bookmark as 'xxxxx'" with xxxxx being the default name of the service/website in your browser, with a TOFU principle :).
  - kevincox 4y ago
    Although almost all users just use a search engine. Actually typing in domains is dying (very slowly). I still do it occasionally for things written "in the real world" but this is slowly getting replaced with QR codes. The last main thing that I use domains for is verification (is this really "google.com"?) but even that is 1. Not effective (yes, I am definitely "goog1e.com") and 2. Mostly replaced by my browser doing the check for me (for example via my password manager which only fills in credentials for the correct domain).
    - p4bl0 4y ago
      > Although almost all users just use a search engine. This is literally what I'm saying and the main point I'm addressing in the second and third paragraph of the comment you are replying to. However, you make a very good point with QR code: this is another argument for why the actual domain name is not that important.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      The apparent dichotomy of either using a search engine or typing out the full domain is confusing. What I do 99% of the time is type two or three letters into the address bar and let the rest of the address complete from my browser history. Giving those two or three letters to google to doesn't seem like it would do anything to improve the process, it's just a default that browsers foist on users because Google pays the browser developer for it.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      That is how people use domain names, but people are a very small subset of the DNS "customers" - all applications and websites hit DNS quite often.
    - latchkey 4y ago
      I stopped using qr codes when I realized how easy it is for someone to put a sticker over an existing code and send me to a phishing site. Certainly, I can do it super cautiously, but it definitely seems like an easy attack vector.
- bluejekyll 4y ago
  That’s not always how DNS is used in practice. There are lots of different configurations where there’s a local portion that represents a non-global name. This isn’t necessarily best practice, mind you, because it can have security implications if the name doesn’t resolve locally but does remotely. To make this practice work consistently, the .local TLD is specifically reserved for such use cases in mDNS. Now I should mention, all TLDs should be reserved even if only used locally because of above security implications, but there’s nothing preventing people from abusing DNS in a local setting to resolve names differently than they do remotely.
- cowtools 4y ago
  The only thing that needs to be globally recognized are public keys. The distribution of those public-key/identity pairs is a social problem that the existing DNS/PKI does not solve but rather makes worse. Users anonymously subscribe to root zones that they trust, or act as their own authority.
- BeefWellington 4y ago
  DNS is just a system whereby you can translate any name to any IP address. Global has nothing to do with it. In fact, by nature DNS is almost always local (you go to your chosen DNS server's IP to get the data). Your DNS server is free to lie to you about the real IP for www.google.com. The thing that protects you here is TLS and PKI and our agreed-upon global trust system of registrars and certificate authorities that have been built up. DNS itself is just one (very abuse-able) cog in that wheel.
  - walls 4y ago
    So it's basically useless without adding governance which eliminates the entire point of this project.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      No, you get to choose your governance rather than it being chosen for you. That seems like an really important thing when we normally talk about governance.
      - naasking 4y ago
        > No, you get to choose your governance rather than it being chosen for you. For instance, if you live in China.
- schanzen 4y ago
  Yes, and you could apply the DNS governance model to GNS. For example: Let's say GNS gets traction. Users and implementation could provide a list of start zone mappings which are managed by ICANN and use this as a default. Effectively, this will give users global names. Just like now. .de will be managed by DENIC, .fr will be managed by AFNIC etc. BUT: GNS is designed to allow to override such a setting. The ICANN root zone may be delegated by the user into the .icann namespace. So, locally, example.com in DNS would become example.com.icann in GNS. Alternatively, the user may also override ANY TLD mapping provided by the ICANN configuration - or individual domains - if needed. For example, if a domain is seized or otherwise censored in DNS.
- PhineasRex 4y ago
  All decentralized domain systems by definition do not address universality and thus require a change in user behavior. The core idea is a return to pre-internet naming where "Sal's Pizza" refers to a different establishment in different cities. There are pros and cons to this approach but the point is not to exactly replicate DNS.

shakna 4y ago

Unlike DNS, GNS doesn't require that only one nick be bound to a domain to be resolved. [0] There's a series of preferences for the order of resolution, which means that you can prioritise your friend over someone else. The domain itself can have a preference, but the user is free to ignore it. Which does mean that a domain is not as definitive as it is, in the case of DNS. [0] https://lsd.gnunet.org/lsd0001/#name-nick-2 https://lsd.gnunet.org/lsd0001/#name-nick-2

schanzen 4y ago

This is a complex question. In order to use GNS "like" DNS, you need a similar Root Zone governance. See also https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#name-start-zones https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#n... and https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#name-start-zone-configuration https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#n... However, the protocol does not really care what kind of governance is chosen or present. In order to understand this a bit better I invite anyone to read section 1-3 of https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html

zerocrates 4y ago
I mean, DNS also doesn't care at a protocol level about governance, right? It's just the actual, practical DNS system that everybody actually uses which does.
- schanzen 4y ago
  Yes. And it is totally possible that a "common" and default use case with GNS looks just like DNS. The spec just does not mandate the governance. In fact, it mandates implementations to honor user-chosen configurations for petname overrides. (See my other comments)

p4bl0 4y ago

This is how it is in I2P too, and it works okay there :).

smackmybishop 4y ago

Zooko's Triangle might be a factor here. Sounds like they chose 'distributed' over 'human-meaningful.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle

schanzen 4y ago
No, we chose the petname/SDSI solution to the problem: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#name-overview https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-schanzen-gns-19.html#n...