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I'm going to get downvoted so hard for this. But I agree with OP. Thing is, OP is a _REAL_PROGRAMMER_ and the world have moved beyond those. The vast amount o

by dusted 4y ago

I'm going to get downvoted so hard for this. But I agree with OP. Thing is, OP is a _REAL_PROGRAMMER_ and the world have moved beyond those. The vast amount of shops have no tasks for _REAL_PRORGAMMERS_, what they need are hipsters with trouble hair and strong opinions on pronouns who know just enough to glue together this months random assortment of nodejs libraries for their web"app". OPs points are valid, you can in fact work in a silo and function very well in a team at the same point. As long as you never tell anyone that matter that you do this.. You update your status, you help stuck team mates and you tell your part at the standup. You code not just for yourself but with the idea that others have a chance of taking it over when you jump in front of a trai.... get hit by a bus ;)

kramerger 4y ago
> what they need are hipsters with trouble hair and strong opinions on pronouns Mate, seriosly, where did _that_ come from? I mean, as a _REAL PROGRAMMER_ myself, it sounds to me as _you_ have strong opinions about other peoples pronouns ;)
- dusted 4y ago
  I only want one pronoun, and it should mean "you're not interesting enough for me to care" :) I don't know where it came from tbh, probably monday lack of caffeine and capacity to handle the many facets of being human.. A weariness of constantly seeing articles about why and how my gender and culture is toxic and must change to focus on stuff I don't care about.. I just want to program computers.. I don't care about the politics or culture, if I did, I'd have become something in the humanities.. And the constant pressure to extinguish the thing in my field that makes it comfortable for me to be there.. That I do in fact get to be left alone for long stretches of time to focus on doing something I _can_ do well, rather than a constant nagging about the things I find uncomfortable and can't do well.. Kinda gets to me the end, the constant hate on the oldfashioned stereotypical loner geek.. The constant pressure to push them out because they don't conform socially or enjoy working in teams.. Thing is, while functioning in a team is something that can be learnt to some degree, it's not the default mode of operation for all of us.. And the pressure to make it the default mode of operation for all software development nags me, because it means that there won't be a place for me in the future, I will be excluded, in the holy name of inclusivity (which means something very specific, namely defined by problem hair and pronouns). Because, I'm one of the wrong ones, I've always been, but in the past, computers were the one place where I could be myself on my own terms.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Agile development and push for constant teamwork was here for years and years, at the time when being gay was openly mockable. The daily standups are the thing first introduced 20 years ago. If you really don't care about politics and culture, why are you venting your frustrations with collaborative process that exists entirely independently on trans people?
    - dusted 4y ago
      I've never said a word about trans people, I literally just wrote that I don't care about that stuff?!
      - watwut 4y ago
        You wrote that you don't care about politics. Then you complained about agile style teamwork and related it to pronouns and trans politics, despite the two having zero with each other. That is not just caring about politics, that is actively bringing it up. And it is not just taking side, but it is going out of way to blame the side youbare opposed to for stuff they have nothing to do with. (Like your issue to focus). You do care about that stuff it seems to and you do care a lot about pronouns.
        CRConrad 4y ago
        > Then you complained about agile style teamwork and related it to pronouns and trans politics, despite the two having zero with each other. > That is not just caring about politics, that is actively bringing it up. I read their complaint as not being about "pronouns and trans politics" per se, but with the fact that stuff like that is becoming so dominant in the workplace. GP was saying that that's all irrelevant to them[1], not taking sides pro or contra. ___ [1]: Or, let's be honest, him.
watwut 4y ago
I have found this to be repeated assertion by conservatives - that your political leaning somehow has to do with whether you are programmer or not. The underlying assumption, literally always, is that if you are progressive leaning, you cant be good programmer. And the other assumption is also frequent: if you are right leaning or even sexist/racist, then the assumption is that you are unusually good coder. Both these go on regardless of how little information is available about one coding skills.
eesmith 4y ago
> hipsters with trouble hair and strong opinions on pronouns I guess you don't remember Boomer programmers complaining about Gen-X programmers, raised on BASIC, with trouble hair (male programmers with their ponytails and scraggly beards), and with strong opinions on how 'information wants to be free', who know just enough to plug a board into an EISA slot, but unable to use a soldering iron or oscilloscope. It comes down to what "silo" means. Most people use something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_silo#In_organizations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_silo#In_organizati... - "a mindset present when certain departments or sectors do not wish to share information with others in the same company". If you update your status, help stuck team mates, and tell your part at the standup then you aren't in a silo. This has zilch to do with tired stereotypes of modern developers. Here's what the author wrote: > A team player isn’t someone who shies away from going into a silo. In fact, the very nature that drags you to an unromantic profession like programming is your ability to go into a cave for hours, and emerge victorious having nailed the problem, and/or designed the kickass solution. That victorious outcome takes months, sometimes years, yes. Compare that with what McCarthy wrote in 1995: "Rule #30: Don't go dark." ] You have to manage the granularity of development tasks in such a way that you emerge with visible deliverables over short intervals. In our group, we argue back and forth over how big the intervals should be: five days, ten days, three weeks? In our world, three weeks is going dark. ] I don't know what's appropriate for your world, but we want team members to have contracts with the other parts of the team so that they surface pretty often with visible components. When somebody surfaces and the deliverable isn't done, we know right away. We know that this week we slipped one day. That's worth knowing, much better than getting to the end of the project and observing, "Oh, we slipped six months!" At that point it's too late to even bother counting up how much you've slipped. and: "Rule #31: Beware of a guy in a room" ] Specialist developers who lock themselves away in a room, who go dark for long stretches, are anathema to shipping great software on time. No matter how brilliant a developer might be, don't give the developer a significant assignment unless he or she understands and buys into the type of development program you intend to run. The brilliant developer must be capable of performing on a team, making his work visible in modest increments and subjecting it to scrutiny as it matures. Some people find this intolerable, and although there is a role for people of this disposition in the software world, it is not as a part of a team devoted to shipping great software on time. See https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-go-dark/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-go-dark/ for more commentary.

by dusted 4y ago

kramerger 4y ago

> what they need are hipsters with trouble hair and strong opinions on pronouns Mate, seriosly, where did _that_ come from? I mean, as a _REAL PROGRAMMER_ myself, it sounds to me as _you_ have strong opinions about other peoples pronouns ;)

dusted 4y ago
I only want one pronoun, and it should mean "you're not interesting enough for me to care" :) I don't know where it came from tbh, probably monday lack of caffeine and capacity to handle the many facets of being human.. A weariness of constantly seeing articles about why and how my gender and culture is toxic and must change to focus on stuff I don't care about.. I just want to program computers.. I don't care about the politics or culture, if I did, I'd have become something in the humanities.. And the constant pressure to extinguish the thing in my field that makes it comfortable for me to be there.. That I do in fact get to be left alone for long stretches of time to focus on doing something I _can_ do well, rather than a constant nagging about the things I find uncomfortable and can't do well.. Kinda gets to me the end, the constant hate on the oldfashioned stereotypical loner geek.. The constant pressure to push them out because they don't conform socially or enjoy working in teams.. Thing is, while functioning in a team is something that can be learnt to some degree, it's not the default mode of operation for all of us.. And the pressure to make it the default mode of operation for all software development nags me, because it means that there won't be a place for me in the future, I will be excluded, in the holy name of inclusivity (which means something very specific, namely defined by problem hair and pronouns). Because, I'm one of the wrong ones, I've always been, but in the past, computers were the one place where I could be myself on my own terms.
- watwut 4y ago
  Agile development and push for constant teamwork was here for years and years, at the time when being gay was openly mockable. The daily standups are the thing first introduced 20 years ago. If you really don't care about politics and culture, why are you venting your frustrations with collaborative process that exists entirely independently on trans people?
  - dusted 4y ago
    I've never said a word about trans people, I literally just wrote that I don't care about that stuff?!
    - watwut 4y ago
      You wrote that you don't care about politics. Then you complained about agile style teamwork and related it to pronouns and trans politics, despite the two having zero with each other. That is not just caring about politics, that is actively bringing it up. And it is not just taking side, but it is going out of way to blame the side youbare opposed to for stuff they have nothing to do with. (Like your issue to focus). You do care about that stuff it seems to and you do care a lot about pronouns.
      - CRConrad 4y ago
        > Then you complained about agile style teamwork and related it to pronouns and trans politics, despite the two having zero with each other. > That is not just caring about politics, that is actively bringing it up. I read their complaint as not being about "pronouns and trans politics" per se, but with the fact that stuff like that is becoming so dominant in the workplace. GP was saying that that's all irrelevant to them[1], not taking sides pro or contra. ___ [1]: Or, let's be honest, him.

watwut 4y ago

I have found this to be repeated assertion by conservatives - that your political leaning somehow has to do with whether you are programmer or not. The underlying assumption, literally always, is that if you are progressive leaning, you cant be good programmer. And the other assumption is also frequent: if you are right leaning or even sexist/racist, then the assumption is that you are unusually good coder. Both these go on regardless of how little information is available about one coding skills.

eesmith 4y ago

> hipsters with trouble hair and strong opinions on pronouns I guess you don't remember Boomer programmers complaining about Gen-X programmers, raised on BASIC, with trouble hair (male programmers with their ponytails and scraggly beards), and with strong opinions on how 'information wants to be free', who know just enough to plug a board into an EISA slot, but unable to use a soldering iron or oscilloscope. It comes down to what "silo" means. Most people use something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_silo#In_organizations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_silo#In_organizati... - "a mindset present when certain departments or sectors do not wish to share information with others in the same company". If you update your status, help stuck team mates, and tell your part at the standup then you aren't in a silo. This has zilch to do with tired stereotypes of modern developers. Here's what the author wrote: > A team player isn’t someone who shies away from going into a silo. In fact, the very nature that drags you to an unromantic profession like programming is your ability to go into a cave for hours, and emerge victorious having nailed the problem, and/or designed the kickass solution. That victorious outcome takes months, sometimes years, yes. Compare that with what McCarthy wrote in 1995: "Rule #30: Don't go dark." ] You have to manage the granularity of development tasks in such a way that you emerge with visible deliverables over short intervals. In our group, we argue back and forth over how big the intervals should be: five days, ten days, three weeks? In our world, three weeks is going dark. ] I don't know what's appropriate for your world, but we want team members to have contracts with the other parts of the team so that they surface pretty often with visible components. When somebody surfaces and the deliverable isn't done, we know right away. We know that this week we slipped one day. That's worth knowing, much better than getting to the end of the project and observing, "Oh, we slipped six months!" At that point it's too late to even bother counting up how much you've slipped. and: "Rule #31: Beware of a guy in a room" ] Specialist developers who lock themselves away in a room, who go dark for long stretches, are anathema to shipping great software on time. No matter how brilliant a developer might be, don't give the developer a significant assignment unless he or she understands and buys into the type of development program you intend to run. The brilliant developer must be capable of performing on a team, making his work visible in modest increments and subjecting it to scrutiny as it matures. Some people find this intolerable, and although there is a role for people of this disposition in the software world, it is not as a part of a team devoted to shipping great software on time. See https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-go-dark/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/dont-go-dark/ for more commentary.