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On windows and macos you can write “python” in the terminal and get a python prompt with no extra steps. (well, on windows you get a windows store pop-up to ins

On windows and macos you can write “python” in the terminal and get a python prompt with no extra steps. (well, on windows you get a windows store pop-up to install python, but same diff.) I’ve never used BASIC, but is it really so much more approachable/productive than python? With python’s batteries included philosophy, I’d expect it to be pretty quick for beginners. The only sticking point I can think of is GUIs

WalterBright 4y ago
BASIC is absurdly easy to write programs in, lowering the entry friction as far as possible. > 10 print "Bow before the Mighty Walter, scum!" > 20 goto 10 > run
- klodolph 4y ago
  I don't think there's much friction to Python either. $ python >>> while True: ... print("Help, I'm trapped in a loop!") There's a little bit more punctuation (>>> and ... don't count) but you don't have to fuss with line numbers. These days, when someone I know is interested in learning some computer programming, I tell them to get a copy of Introduction to Computer Science Using Python by Dierbach. My own intro programming books are horribly outdated at this point, but I happen to have a copy of Dierbach's book, and I think it is pretty nice. You start up by firing up the Python REPL on your computer, and from there it talks about how computers work. IMO, this is an easier way to start computer programming than we ever had with BASIC. The barrier to entry is as low as it ever was, the languages are a lot nicer and you can definitely get real work done with Python, and over the years we've gotten more textbooks & better textbooks. Honestly, the real friction here is that you have to open up a terminal window and type "python". Or if you are interested in JavaScript, you have to press Ctrl+Shift+I or some other combo to bring up a REPL in whatever browser window is already open. It's not friction, it's just a little obfuscation--give someone a computer and they probably won't discover Python or JavaScript just by playing around with it, but if you give someone an Apple II, they're going to run head-first into BASIC.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    C:\scan>python 'python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file. C:\scan> which is my point. (BASIC is also a far, far easier to learn language than Python.)
    - Kim_Bruning 4y ago
      Grabbing a random old Long-Term-Support machine: kimsbox:~ $ python3 Python 3.5.3 (default, Sep 27 2018, 17:25:39) [GCC 6.3.0 20170516] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> (This works on 2 out of 3 most common operating system families. Just don't use the bad one :-P ). I learned BBC BASIC first and it still holds special place in my heart. A lot of the feel of Python is similar (it also has similar goals), but it is quite a bit younger and has a lot more 'batteries included'. So I have to say I do actually prefer python for my day-to-day usage now.
motogpjimbo 4y ago
The difference is that on those old 8-bit microcomputers BASIC was the standard way to write programs. The only other choice was assembly language, which was mostly used by games for performance reasons. So BASIC programs written by the user really were first class citizens. While you technically can write a Python program in Microsoft's terrible terminal window, such a program is a very distant second class citizen in the Windows ecosystem. This adds to the friction the poster above is referring to.
anta40 4y ago
Approachable? I believe it's a solid "yes". Well, QBASIC was one of my 1st exposure to programming in high school, almost 2 decades ago. Internet access was kinda limited at that time, and I could understand the basic concepts (data types, loop, condition etc) in a few weeks by studying a book. Maybe I'm biased. Productive? Not really sure about this. But obviously Python has a nice standard library and package manager which help you install 3rd party libs easily. Not idea which modern BASIC environment which provides that. If you want to handle various networking, GUI, database etc stuffs then probably Python is easier.

WalterBright 4y ago

BASIC is absurdly easy to write programs in, lowering the entry friction as far as possible. > 10 print "Bow before the Mighty Walter, scum!" > 20 goto 10 > run

klodolph 4y ago
I don't think there's much friction to Python either. $ python >>> while True: ... print("Help, I'm trapped in a loop!") There's a little bit more punctuation (>>> and ... don't count) but you don't have to fuss with line numbers. These days, when someone I know is interested in learning some computer programming, I tell them to get a copy of Introduction to Computer Science Using Python by Dierbach. My own intro programming books are horribly outdated at this point, but I happen to have a copy of Dierbach's book, and I think it is pretty nice. You start up by firing up the Python REPL on your computer, and from there it talks about how computers work. IMO, this is an easier way to start computer programming than we ever had with BASIC. The barrier to entry is as low as it ever was, the languages are a lot nicer and you can definitely get real work done with Python, and over the years we've gotten more textbooks & better textbooks. Honestly, the real friction here is that you have to open up a terminal window and type "python". Or if you are interested in JavaScript, you have to press Ctrl+Shift+I or some other combo to bring up a REPL in whatever browser window is already open. It's not friction, it's just a little obfuscation--give someone a computer and they probably won't discover Python or JavaScript just by playing around with it, but if you give someone an Apple II, they're going to run head-first into BASIC.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  C:\scan>python 'python' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file. C:\scan> which is my point. (BASIC is also a far, far easier to learn language than Python.)
  - Kim_Bruning 4y ago
    Grabbing a random old Long-Term-Support machine: kimsbox:~ $ python3 Python 3.5.3 (default, Sep 27 2018, 17:25:39) [GCC 6.3.0 20170516] on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> (This works on 2 out of 3 most common operating system families. Just don't use the bad one :-P ). I learned BBC BASIC first and it still holds special place in my heart. A lot of the feel of Python is similar (it also has similar goals), but it is quite a bit younger and has a lot more 'batteries included'. So I have to say I do actually prefer python for my day-to-day usage now.

motogpjimbo 4y ago

The difference is that on those old 8-bit microcomputers BASIC was the standard way to write programs. The only other choice was assembly language, which was mostly used by games for performance reasons. So BASIC programs written by the user really were first class citizens. While you technically can write a Python program in Microsoft's terrible terminal window, such a program is a very distant second class citizen in the Windows ecosystem. This adds to the friction the poster above is referring to.

anta40 4y ago

Approachable? I believe it's a solid "yes". Well, QBASIC was one of my 1st exposure to programming in high school, almost 2 decades ago. Internet access was kinda limited at that time, and I could understand the basic concepts (data types, loop, condition etc) in a few weeks by studying a book. Maybe I'm biased. Productive? Not really sure about this. But obviously Python has a nice standard library and package manager which help you install 3rd party libs easily. Not idea which modern BASIC environment which provides that. If you want to handle various networking, GUI, database etc stuffs then probably Python is easier.