7 ms·

Maybe it's good to have an open ecosystem for using the language that doesn't rely on paying for an IDE? I personally soured on Kotlin for this same reason!

by d3nj4l 4y ago

jimbob45 4y ago
VS is free though.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  Yeah but it's terrible? It's slow, it's bloated, it's loaded with way too many configuration options and yet still doesn't have a lot of config I like from other editors. It has plenty of plugins and still manages to be missing extensions that I find important. Development with Visual Studio just doesn't feel very good compared to other environments these days.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    You mean lack of GUI tooling, no proper debugger, no parallel code debugging, no GPGPU debugging, no hotcode reload, no REPL, no mixed language debugging, no lifecycle management,... yeah those environments rock.
- faeriechangling 4y ago
  That sure isn't my understanding if you work for a large enough business. It is very explicitly NOT free. https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/license-terms/mlt031819/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/license-terms/mlt031819/ This is the rare post where I would be fucking ecstatic to be proven wrong but sadly I believe I'm correct.
  - Kwpolska 4y ago
    Yes, VS is free for individual devs, and for five users in a small business. Does it matter though? If you're too cheap to pay for developer tools, you're probably a terrible place to work at.
    - faeriechangling 4y ago
      Yeah it's pretty important if you're at such a terrible place to work at, because you can make that place a little less terrible, and because you can use the C# experience you garner to get into a less terrible job.
    - d3nj4l 4y ago
      Why is it assumed that you're only ever professionally working on code? Do none of you work on side projects, or open source projects?
      - daveoc64 4y ago
        Did you read what you replied to? It's free for individual developers, small businesses, and work on open source projects (no matter the size of the organisation). https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/pricing/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/pricing/
- exyi 4y ago
  ...and doesn't on Linux
dmitriid 4y ago
Why do people feel they are absoultely entitled to having best-in-class IDEs for free? Don't the developers of those IDEs have the right to, you know, eat? ALso, JetBrains' IDEs are: - free for students, startups and opensource projects - cost an insane "two/three beers a month" for individual licenses (yeah, it's more expensive than two beers in many countries, but as a developer I could easily afford it even in the shithole that is Moldova)
- d3nj4l 4y ago
  I'm not entitled to a best-in-class IDE experience, I'm just happy using one of the dozens of equivalent languages that do have them with an open community.
  - manigandham 4y ago
    Those are not best-in-class. Pretty much the entire industry is now VS Code by default - which is very good but not a full IDE like VS or Rider/IntelliJ series.
    - d3nj4l 4y ago
      I'm extremely happy writing Rust with neovim and rust-analyzer. There are plenty of long time rust users who will absolutely tell you that rust-analyzer beats IntelliJ Rust, and I find it very much comparable to writing Java in IntelliJ, which I do professionally. Likewise, Elixir's open source and community developed LSP is incredible and easily an IDE-class experience with neovim or VSCode.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    No language has been tied to an IDE since at least early 2000s. Microsofts own compilers are free to use. So no idea what you're talking about when you talk about "a language that doesn't rely on paying for an IDE". And the tools for most of the languages supported by the open community? The top, best-of-breed of these tools can barely do the bare minimum of refactoring and maybe symbol lookups. Even to this day you can read things like "X is amazing for refactoring because you change something, and the compiler will tell you all the places where it can't compile". Good tools are expensive. And, surprisingly, Jetbrains' IDEs are not expensive at all. And are several orders of magnitude more powerful than anything the "open community" has come up with. And, to re-iterate, no language is dependent on an IDE these days. Go grab Kotlin's CLI compiler, https://kotlinlang.org/docs/command-line.html https://kotlinlang.org/docs/command-line.html fire up your vi/emacs/gedit and code to your heart's content if you're so set against commercial IDEs.

Maybe it's good to have an open ecosystem for using the language that doesn't rely on paying for an IDE? I personally soured on Kotlin for this same reason!

by d3nj4l 4y ago

Maybe it's good to have an open ecosystem for using the language that doesn't rely on paying for an IDE? I personally soured on Kotlin for this same reason!

jimbob45 4y ago

VS is free though.

bluefirebrand 4y ago
Yeah but it's terrible? It's slow, it's bloated, it's loaded with way too many configuration options and yet still doesn't have a lot of config I like from other editors. It has plenty of plugins and still manages to be missing extensions that I find important. Development with Visual Studio just doesn't feel very good compared to other environments these days.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  You mean lack of GUI tooling, no proper debugger, no parallel code debugging, no GPGPU debugging, no hotcode reload, no REPL, no mixed language debugging, no lifecycle management,... yeah those environments rock.
faeriechangling 4y ago
That sure isn't my understanding if you work for a large enough business. It is very explicitly NOT free. https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/license-terms/mlt031819/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/license-terms/mlt031819/ This is the rare post where I would be fucking ecstatic to be proven wrong but sadly I believe I'm correct.
- Kwpolska 4y ago
  Yes, VS is free for individual devs, and for five users in a small business. Does it matter though? If you're too cheap to pay for developer tools, you're probably a terrible place to work at.
  - faeriechangling 4y ago
    Yeah it's pretty important if you're at such a terrible place to work at, because you can make that place a little less terrible, and because you can use the C# experience you garner to get into a less terrible job.
  - d3nj4l 4y ago
    Why is it assumed that you're only ever professionally working on code? Do none of you work on side projects, or open source projects?
    - daveoc64 4y ago
      Did you read what you replied to? It's free for individual developers, small businesses, and work on open source projects (no matter the size of the organisation). https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/pricing/ https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/pricing/
exyi 4y ago
...and doesn't on Linux

dmitriid 4y ago

Why do people feel they are absoultely entitled to having best-in-class IDEs for free? Don't the developers of those IDEs have the right to, you know, eat? ALso, JetBrains' IDEs are: - free for students, startups and opensource projects - cost an insane "two/three beers a month" for individual licenses (yeah, it's more expensive than two beers in many countries, but as a developer I could easily afford it even in the shithole that is Moldova)

d3nj4l 4y ago
I'm not entitled to a best-in-class IDE experience, I'm just happy using one of the dozens of equivalent languages that do have them with an open community.
- manigandham 4y ago
  Those are not best-in-class. Pretty much the entire industry is now VS Code by default - which is very good but not a full IDE like VS or Rider/IntelliJ series.
  - d3nj4l 4y ago
    I'm extremely happy writing Rust with neovim and rust-analyzer. There are plenty of long time rust users who will absolutely tell you that rust-analyzer beats IntelliJ Rust, and I find it very much comparable to writing Java in IntelliJ, which I do professionally. Likewise, Elixir's open source and community developed LSP is incredible and easily an IDE-class experience with neovim or VSCode.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  No language has been tied to an IDE since at least early 2000s. Microsofts own compilers are free to use. So no idea what you're talking about when you talk about "a language that doesn't rely on paying for an IDE". And the tools for most of the languages supported by the open community? The top, best-of-breed of these tools can barely do the bare minimum of refactoring and maybe symbol lookups. Even to this day you can read things like "X is amazing for refactoring because you change something, and the compiler will tell you all the places where it can't compile". Good tools are expensive. And, surprisingly, Jetbrains' IDEs are not expensive at all. And are several orders of magnitude more powerful than anything the "open community" has come up with. And, to re-iterate, no language is dependent on an IDE these days. Go grab Kotlin's CLI compiler, https://kotlinlang.org/docs/command-line.html https://kotlinlang.org/docs/command-line.html fire up your vi/emacs/gedit and code to your heart's content if you're so set against commercial IDEs.