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Also as historical records show, and as some in the western braintrust noted at the time, the idea that Stalin was foisting revolution onto Korean communists, i

Also as historical records show, and as some in the western braintrust noted at the time, the idea that Stalin was foisting revolution onto Korean communists, it was somewhat backwards - local Korean communists fighting the Japanese and then Americans, like the Chinese, were much more enthused about revolution in their countries than Stalin was.

hackerlight 4y ago
It was Mao foisting it onto Korea. Stalin was a careful opportunist and thought Korea would be too risky and reckless, so he was hesitant but was eventually persuaded by Mao that it was a good idea. > local Korean communists ... were much more enthused about revolution in their countries than Stalin was. Even if we substitute "Stalin" for "Mao", this statement has low epistemic legibility and low relevance. It could have been 100, 10k, or 1 million Korean communists who were genuinely more "enthused" than Mao was, given that there's likely to be N > 0 people who are more enthused about any kind of political project inside of a large population when their enthusiasm is contrasted to that of a single person. That's a given. It doesn't detract from the fact that an ideology and system was forced onto a sizeable unwilling population with Mao's direct backing.
- pattusk 4y ago
  this is untrue, the Korean peninsula had a strong socialist (including non-Marxist forms of socialism) and later communist (as in affiliated with the COMINTERN) movement from the early 20th century and its main influence was the Japanese Communist Party - not Mao. (Incidentally, a large part of the membership of the Japanese Communist Party was Korean - up until the cadres.) North Korean troops (and earlier the so-called "Yanan Koreans") were also instrumental in securing the Chinese communist victory during the Civil War through their actions in Northeast China. So in a sense they forced communism on China just as much as the Chinese forced communism onto Korea. > It was Mao foisting it onto Korea. Stalin was a careful opportunist and thought Korea would be too risky and reckless, so he was hesitant but was eventually persuaded by Mao that it was a good idea. Your statement refers to the Korean War. As archive records now show, both Stalin and Mao were reluctant and Kim Il Sung only managed to convince Stalin by pretending that Mao was on board for an invasion of the South (and likewise lying to Mao about Stalin being on board). In any case, North Korea was already socialist before the Korean War. And the South also had a very strong communist movement - the first governments that sprouted in Korea after 1945 were "people's committees". But the US backed dictator Syngman Rhee (selected for his staunch anti-communism, the man was so reactionary his conservatism shocked even US intelligence) managed to politicide the Southern communists in large numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeosu%E2%80%93Suncheon_rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeosu%E2%80%93Suncheon_rebelli...
  - Synaesthesia 4y ago
    Most of the leaders selected for the South Korean govt where collaborators with the Japanese occupation.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  Because the "socialist" revolutions, were first and foremost national independence movements. The red decoration was nothing more then the "fashion" at the time. Had socialism existed when america declared independence and russia supported the us, the american indepence day would be significantly more hammer & sickled. This is why the vietnam war was so wrong, it was fought by a ex-colony for a colonial power, halucinating a enemy were there actually was just its own history repeating.
  - UberFly 4y ago
    The Soviet Red Army "liberated" northern Korea in August 1945, just as it "liberated" half of Germany at the end of WW2. Calling the influence of the Soviet Union in vulnerable parts of the world "fashion" is mindbogglingly dumb.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      It wasn't so bad for Germany, we still let ex-Nazis run the US half.
      - pyuser583 4y ago
        In 1946, the infant mortality rate in Berlin was greater than 90%.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    It's not "fashion", it's the practicalities of getting military and diplomatic assistance as an underdog. Enemy of your enemy and all that.

hackerlight 4y ago

It was Mao foisting it onto Korea. Stalin was a careful opportunist and thought Korea would be too risky and reckless, so he was hesitant but was eventually persuaded by Mao that it was a good idea. > local Korean communists ... were much more enthused about revolution in their countries than Stalin was. Even if we substitute "Stalin" for "Mao", this statement has low epistemic legibility and low relevance. It could have been 100, 10k, or 1 million Korean communists who were genuinely more "enthused" than Mao was, given that there's likely to be N > 0 people who are more enthused about any kind of political project inside of a large population when their enthusiasm is contrasted to that of a single person. That's a given. It doesn't detract from the fact that an ideology and system was forced onto a sizeable unwilling population with Mao's direct backing.

pattusk 4y ago
this is untrue, the Korean peninsula had a strong socialist (including non-Marxist forms of socialism) and later communist (as in affiliated with the COMINTERN) movement from the early 20th century and its main influence was the Japanese Communist Party - not Mao. (Incidentally, a large part of the membership of the Japanese Communist Party was Korean - up until the cadres.) North Korean troops (and earlier the so-called "Yanan Koreans") were also instrumental in securing the Chinese communist victory during the Civil War through their actions in Northeast China. So in a sense they forced communism on China just as much as the Chinese forced communism onto Korea. > It was Mao foisting it onto Korea. Stalin was a careful opportunist and thought Korea would be too risky and reckless, so he was hesitant but was eventually persuaded by Mao that it was a good idea. Your statement refers to the Korean War. As archive records now show, both Stalin and Mao were reluctant and Kim Il Sung only managed to convince Stalin by pretending that Mao was on board for an invasion of the South (and likewise lying to Mao about Stalin being on board). In any case, North Korea was already socialist before the Korean War. And the South also had a very strong communist movement - the first governments that sprouted in Korea after 1945 were "people's committees". But the US backed dictator Syngman Rhee (selected for his staunch anti-communism, the man was so reactionary his conservatism shocked even US intelligence) managed to politicide the Southern communists in large numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeosu%E2%80%93Suncheon_rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeosu%E2%80%93Suncheon_rebelli...
- Synaesthesia 4y ago
  Most of the leaders selected for the South Korean govt where collaborators with the Japanese occupation.
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
Because the "socialist" revolutions, were first and foremost national independence movements. The red decoration was nothing more then the "fashion" at the time. Had socialism existed when america declared independence and russia supported the us, the american indepence day would be significantly more hammer & sickled. This is why the vietnam war was so wrong, it was fought by a ex-colony for a colonial power, halucinating a enemy were there actually was just its own history repeating.
- UberFly 4y ago
  The Soviet Red Army "liberated" northern Korea in August 1945, just as it "liberated" half of Germany at the end of WW2. Calling the influence of the Soviet Union in vulnerable parts of the world "fashion" is mindbogglingly dumb.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    It wasn't so bad for Germany, we still let ex-Nazis run the US half.
    - pyuser583 4y ago
      In 1946, the infant mortality rate in Berlin was greater than 90%.
- int_19h 4y ago
  It's not "fashion", it's the practicalities of getting military and diplomatic assistance as an underdog. Enemy of your enemy and all that.