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I'm not clear: Linux and FreeBSD are GNU products? I didn't know! I scoured www.gnu.org, and couldn't find either there. (GNU/Linux refers to a GNU userland cou

I'm not clear: Linux and FreeBSD are GNU products? I didn't know! I scoured www.gnu.org, and couldn't find either there. (GNU/Linux refers to a GNU userland coupled with Linux, you know.) I've been using Emacs happily for going on 40 years. Thanks for alerting me that Emacs is Generally Not Usable. I didn't know.

EarlKing 4y ago
You know precisely that Linux and FreeBSD both depend upon GNU utilities. ("GNU/Linux refers to a GNU userland coupled with Linux") Don't be obtuse. If Emacs works for you then that's great, but if you are at all interested in having a system that works then you should be prepared to hear that for other people your preferred solution doesn't work, and why, be prepared to acknowledge that, and accept that something should be done to fix that. Responding with hostility is not at all productive and is precisely why GNU remains unusable for the majority.
- quesera 4y ago
  FreeBSD does not depend on GNU utilities.
- quesera 4y ago
  Your argument seems to be that GNU has failed because it isn't the majority choice for general purpose computing systems. Correct me if I'm wrong, because that makes no sense at all.
  - EarlKing 4y ago
    No, my argument is that GNU failed by being generally broken and unusable for the vast majority of people such that they won't use it.
    - quesera 4y ago
      GNU the project may be non-optimally managed (I have no opinion), but that doesn't have much impact on its products. GNU the set of software packages is clearly not broken nor unusable. The vast majority of people who would use them, do use them, generally quite successfully. GNU the software licensing model is quite popular and has its pragmatic and political proponents. Not universally loved, but clearly not broken nor unusable. So, what are you talking about?
- vincent-manis 4y ago
  Clearly your first statement is incorrect: Android is an example of a Linux system that doesn't expose a GNU userland. As for “the majority”. I don't know what you mean by that. The vast majority of computer users don't have any experience of anything that is released by the Free Software Foundation; they just use applications, some of which are released under the GPL (e.g., Audacity or VLC), and most of which are not. So what is the population of which the majority is unable to use GNU products? Re Emacs: there is a substantial community of Emacs users. These people have not found it unusable. That other people use vim, VScode, or something else, or have no use for a text editor, doesn't undercut this fact.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > You know precisely that Linux and FreeBSD both depend upon GNU utilities. I'm reasonably sure FreeBSD, being a BSD, depends upon BSD utilities rather than GNU utilities (unless you're running some distro of GNU/kFreeBSD, but in that case your soul is already probably too thoroughly damned to warrant further comment).
- williadc 4y ago
  > GNU remains unusable for the majority. GNU provides a set of tools that are useful to people who make software. Most people don't make software, so GNU doesn't target their needs. There's other software for most users. Most people can't play the guitar, but that doesn't mean guitars "don't work" and "something should be done to fix" them. The people who want to make music spend the requisite time to learn them, then they make music. People who just want to hear that music can buy it without having to own or learn guitar.
saghm 4y ago
> I'm not clear: Linux and FreeBSD are GNU products? Nope! Despite people trying to claim otherwise, as I'm sure you couldn't possibly be trying to do
safety1st 4y ago
His statement is too out there to be credible. It is immediately and trivially falsifiable but if you discuss it with him he'll likely continue to argue about it in perpetuity. It happens on the Internet. Don't feed the trolls, not everything merits a response

EarlKing 4y ago

You know precisely that Linux and FreeBSD both depend upon GNU utilities. ("GNU/Linux refers to a GNU userland coupled with Linux") Don't be obtuse. If Emacs works for you then that's great, but if you are at all interested in having a system that works then you should be prepared to hear that for other people your preferred solution doesn't work, and why, be prepared to acknowledge that, and accept that something should be done to fix that. Responding with hostility is not at all productive and is precisely why GNU remains unusable for the majority.

quesera 4y ago
FreeBSD does not depend on GNU utilities.
quesera 4y ago
Your argument seems to be that GNU has failed because it isn't the majority choice for general purpose computing systems. Correct me if I'm wrong, because that makes no sense at all.
- EarlKing 4y ago
  No, my argument is that GNU failed by being generally broken and unusable for the vast majority of people such that they won't use it.
  - quesera 4y ago
    GNU the project may be non-optimally managed (I have no opinion), but that doesn't have much impact on its products. GNU the set of software packages is clearly not broken nor unusable. The vast majority of people who would use them, do use them, generally quite successfully. GNU the software licensing model is quite popular and has its pragmatic and political proponents. Not universally loved, but clearly not broken nor unusable. So, what are you talking about?
vincent-manis 4y ago
Clearly your first statement is incorrect: Android is an example of a Linux system that doesn't expose a GNU userland. As for “the majority”. I don't know what you mean by that. The vast majority of computer users don't have any experience of anything that is released by the Free Software Foundation; they just use applications, some of which are released under the GPL (e.g., Audacity or VLC), and most of which are not. So what is the population of which the majority is unable to use GNU products? Re Emacs: there is a substantial community of Emacs users. These people have not found it unusable. That other people use vim, VScode, or something else, or have no use for a text editor, doesn't undercut this fact.
yellowapple 4y ago
> You know precisely that Linux and FreeBSD both depend upon GNU utilities. I'm reasonably sure FreeBSD, being a BSD, depends upon BSD utilities rather than GNU utilities (unless you're running some distro of GNU/kFreeBSD, but in that case your soul is already probably too thoroughly damned to warrant further comment).
williadc 4y ago
> GNU remains unusable for the majority. GNU provides a set of tools that are useful to people who make software. Most people don't make software, so GNU doesn't target their needs. There's other software for most users. Most people can't play the guitar, but that doesn't mean guitars "don't work" and "something should be done to fix" them. The people who want to make music spend the requisite time to learn them, then they make music. People who just want to hear that music can buy it without having to own or learn guitar.

saghm 4y ago

> I'm not clear: Linux and FreeBSD are GNU products? Nope! Despite people trying to claim otherwise, as I'm sure you couldn't possibly be trying to do

safety1st 4y ago

His statement is too out there to be credible. It is immediately and trivially falsifiable but if you discuss it with him he'll likely continue to argue about it in perpetuity. It happens on the Internet. Don't feed the trolls, not everything merits a response