4 ms·

The driver is still liable right? Is it still the driver’s responsibility or keeping aware and ready to react or is the autopilot software allowed to autonomous

by geoah 4y ago

The driver is still liable right? Is it still the driver’s responsibility or keeping aware and ready to react or is the autopilot software allowed to autonomously drive these days?

josephcsible 4y ago
The driver is indeed still liable (since it's only a level 2 system), but that seems like the kind of thing that a lot of people would lie about anyway.
- simonh 4y ago
  They wouldn’t get away with it though as the car logs that sort of thing.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Teslas, infamously, turn off autopilot right before a crash.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
Tesla should be liable by virtue of calling things 'autopilot' or 'full self driving' which aren't.
- ActorNightly 4y ago
  This is possibly the dumbest argument against Tesla one could make. From the origin of autopilot from its aviation history, its pretty clear that autopilot was not designed to prevent you from hitting things.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    In aircraft or maritime it's a system you can activate and stop paying attention to the controls or do a task like navigation, eating, or going to the bathroom for timescales on the order of seconds to minutes. Tesla's 'autopilot' system is cruise control but with more mental overhead when the human needs to react because the human is being hypnotised by lack of stimulus and has to keep a mental model of what the car is planning in their head. And 'full self driving' is an automated way of making the driver as unprepared for novel stimulus as possible. "You have to sit here and do nothing, but react in milliseconds when I fuck up" is not a task a human can do. Tesla know this and have known this since before they made the features available and gave them misleading names. So when the human inevitably doesn't react in time in a scenario where it is impossible for them to react in time, they are the ones responsible.
    - ActorNightly 4y ago
      To just arbitrarily redefine autopilot for cars as something that can avoid accidents isn't a good argument. You are supposed to still have awareness when using autopilot in an airplane, ship - paying attention to things like radar, radio, ADSB, e.t.c. And in a Tesla, you are supposed to pay attention visually. Full self driving is still in beta test, with present dangers that you have to accept. All the accidents that happen with Tesla autopilot use are driver error, full stop. Just like its driver error to get drunk and drive, or be looking down at a phone distracted, and rear end a motorcycle. As someone who rides, Id rather have roads full of Teslas with FSD, because for every time it fucks up there are vastly more times for it to avoid an accident, given that you are not going to get rid of drunk, high, or distracted drivers.
      - Gordonjcp 4y ago
        I've never seen Tesla's "autopilot" avoid an accident that a human driver wouldn't have reacted to sooner. Maybe the standard of driving in the US is very low, or something.
        herewulf 4y ago
        It actually is. Some states are far worse than others. In my state, a learning permit can be obtained at the age of 15. Not exactly a good age for handling grave responsibility.
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        I mean I grew up in a part of the world where if you can't drive and maintain a tractor and a fair selection of implements at the age of 12 they start phoning special schools and highly qualified educational psychologists, but I get that this is very much the exception. It's weird like that even down south here at 56°N.
      - Ekaros 4y ago
        I think we could make argument that autopilot is a unfit system for car travel. Both air and water the distances and reaction times needed are much much longer. At least in the situations autopilots are used. And they are not really used in situations where manual control is needed.
- treesprite82 4y ago
  Something that just flies an aircraft straight and level is still an autopilot, so I don't think it's a totally inaccurate metaphor. Ironically in these situations a more understated name would probably work better for PR. Headline of "Tesla on cruise control rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider" gives a much stronger impression of it being the driver's fault.
  - moralestapia 4y ago
    You bring up a valid argument but, unfortunately, it cuts both ways. Aircraft manufacturers are liable when their vehicles crash due to malfunction.
    - influxmoment 4y ago
      Aircraft manufacturers are not responsible for an autopilot crash
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      If the pilot turns on autopilot and then stops paying attention, and then the plane crashes, it's absolutely not the manufacturer's fault.
      - Schroedingersat 4y ago
        If the pilot turns on autopilot and looks away for 60 seconds he's using it as intended. This is what autopilot means. Cruise control is not autopilot. The only way your comment would make sense would be if the typical environment for a car were a flat plane of asphalt 100s of km across with all other cars having centrally planned routes that were guaranteed by a third party not to intersect and drivers were trained to turn it off on anything resembling a normal road.
        ricardobeat 4y ago
        If the pilot turns on AP, looks away, and then 30s later crashes into a small aircraft that didn't have their transponder on, is he relived of any responsibility? I don't think so, and am pretty sure there has to be a pilot in the cockpit/controls at all times even while AP is on.

by geoah 4y ago

The driver is still liable right? Is it still the driver’s responsibility or keeping aware and ready to react or is the autopilot software allowed to autonomously drive these days?

josephcsible 4y ago

The driver is indeed still liable (since it's only a level 2 system), but that seems like the kind of thing that a lot of people would lie about anyway.

simonh 4y ago
They wouldn’t get away with it though as the car logs that sort of thing.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Teslas, infamously, turn off autopilot right before a crash.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

Tesla should be liable by virtue of calling things 'autopilot' or 'full self driving' which aren't.

ActorNightly 4y ago
This is possibly the dumbest argument against Tesla one could make. From the origin of autopilot from its aviation history, its pretty clear that autopilot was not designed to prevent you from hitting things.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  In aircraft or maritime it's a system you can activate and stop paying attention to the controls or do a task like navigation, eating, or going to the bathroom for timescales on the order of seconds to minutes. Tesla's 'autopilot' system is cruise control but with more mental overhead when the human needs to react because the human is being hypnotised by lack of stimulus and has to keep a mental model of what the car is planning in their head. And 'full self driving' is an automated way of making the driver as unprepared for novel stimulus as possible. "You have to sit here and do nothing, but react in milliseconds when I fuck up" is not a task a human can do. Tesla know this and have known this since before they made the features available and gave them misleading names. So when the human inevitably doesn't react in time in a scenario where it is impossible for them to react in time, they are the ones responsible.
  - ActorNightly 4y ago
    To just arbitrarily redefine autopilot for cars as something that can avoid accidents isn't a good argument. You are supposed to still have awareness when using autopilot in an airplane, ship - paying attention to things like radar, radio, ADSB, e.t.c. And in a Tesla, you are supposed to pay attention visually. Full self driving is still in beta test, with present dangers that you have to accept. All the accidents that happen with Tesla autopilot use are driver error, full stop. Just like its driver error to get drunk and drive, or be looking down at a phone distracted, and rear end a motorcycle. As someone who rides, Id rather have roads full of Teslas with FSD, because for every time it fucks up there are vastly more times for it to avoid an accident, given that you are not going to get rid of drunk, high, or distracted drivers.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      I've never seen Tesla's "autopilot" avoid an accident that a human driver wouldn't have reacted to sooner. Maybe the standard of driving in the US is very low, or something.
      - herewulf 4y ago
        It actually is. Some states are far worse than others. In my state, a learning permit can be obtained at the age of 15. Not exactly a good age for handling grave responsibility.
        Gordonjcp 4y ago
        I mean I grew up in a part of the world where if you can't drive and maintain a tractor and a fair selection of implements at the age of 12 they start phoning special schools and highly qualified educational psychologists, but I get that this is very much the exception. It's weird like that even down south here at 56°N.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      I think we could make argument that autopilot is a unfit system for car travel. Both air and water the distances and reaction times needed are much much longer. At least in the situations autopilots are used. And they are not really used in situations where manual control is needed.
treesprite82 4y ago
Something that just flies an aircraft straight and level is still an autopilot, so I don't think it's a totally inaccurate metaphor. Ironically in these situations a more understated name would probably work better for PR. Headline of "Tesla on cruise control rear ends motorcycle on freeway, killing rider" gives a much stronger impression of it being the driver's fault.
- moralestapia 4y ago
  You bring up a valid argument but, unfortunately, it cuts both ways. Aircraft manufacturers are liable when their vehicles crash due to malfunction.
  - influxmoment 4y ago
    Aircraft manufacturers are not responsible for an autopilot crash
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    If the pilot turns on autopilot and then stops paying attention, and then the plane crashes, it's absolutely not the manufacturer's fault.
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago
      If the pilot turns on autopilot and looks away for 60 seconds he's using it as intended. This is what autopilot means. Cruise control is not autopilot. The only way your comment would make sense would be if the typical environment for a car were a flat plane of asphalt 100s of km across with all other cars having centrally planned routes that were guaranteed by a third party not to intersect and drivers were trained to turn it off on anything resembling a normal road.
      - ricardobeat 4y ago
        If the pilot turns on AP, looks away, and then 30s later crashes into a small aircraft that didn't have their transponder on, is he relived of any responsibility? I don't think so, and am pretty sure there has to be a pilot in the cockpit/controls at all times even while AP is on.