4 ms·

The difference in effort, for a cheater, between installing a cheat as a user process and a kernel driver is about one button click. I can decide to cheat, sti

The difference in effort, for a cheater, between installing a cheat as a user process and a kernel driver is about one button click. I can decide to cheat, stick my CC info into a website and download a program in less than 5 minutes. To get hardware I need to provide my shipping info and wait a couple of days. If the hardware is banned, I need to wait a few days before my replacement hardware is there, or with software I just update and restart. It's not an all or nothing thing, it's a game of cat and mouse. The aim isn't to completely stamp out cheaters at any cost, it's to raise the bar sufficiently high to make it so that enough games aren't destroyed by cheaters.

prvit 4y ago
> If the hardware is banned, I need to wait a few days before my replacement hardware is there, or with software I just update and restart. Except perhaps the first few iterations, the hardware won’t be banned. You’ll just have to load a software update for your DMA hardware.
- maccard 4y ago
  Great, so for the first few iterations hardware bans are effevtive!
  - prvit 4y ago
    Those first few iterations are already happening.
cowtools 4y ago
How could the cheating hardware be banned? it is general-purpose, there is no change in the programming of the host computer that couldn't be combated by reprogramming the cheating device. Security-by-obscurity is a game of cat-and-mouse where the cat is blind and the mouse is invulnerable.
- maccard 4y ago
  The hardware isn't banned, the player is banned if the anticheat detects the hardware being used. The hardware might be reprogrammable and self modifying at some point in the future, but until it is and it's widely available a root level anticheat is adequate protection.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    The player is not banned. The player's account is banned. It is a free game- they can make as many accounts as they like. The hardware will become widely available once kernel-level anticheat becomes widely used. >if the anticheat detects the hardware being used. The only thing the anticheat will be able to detect is ordinary hardware. My cheating device will capture input from HDMI or PCI, the software sees it as a graphics card or a display. My cheating device lets me inspect memory directly, the motherboard just sees a normal stick of RAM. My cheating device lets me bhop and aimbot- the OS just sees an ordinary USB keyboard and mouse
    - maccard 4y ago
      > The player is not banned. The player's account is banned. It is a free game- they can make as many accounts as they like. You're right and my wording was sloppy. Often account bans come with "hardware" bans which are an attempt at stopping this from happening but like any other form of anticheat they're not 100% effective (and nor do they need to be to be worth having). > The hardware will become widely available once kernel-level anticheat becomes widely used. Sure, and then the barrier for entry has been raised to buying the correct hardware, having it and keeping it up to date. > The only thing the anticheat will be able to detect is ordinary hardware. That's a very bold claim. There's no reason to assume that the hardware will match exactly - I expect that as the cheaters pick devices to spoof the cheat detectors will look for (and find) discrepancies.
    - drdaeman 4y ago
      Regarding the hardware detection - there's always way to up the game and make the system totally airgapped. It is not impossible to have mechanical actuators pressing keys and moving a mouse, and a webcam watching a real monitor. While that's an awful lot of work compared to just reading data off a bus and simulating a HUD device, consider that some decades ago (when the fight was entirely about API hooking and ReadProcessMemory) DMA snooping was considered merely an unrealistic, theoretical possibility.
pilgrimfff 4y ago
That's why I have to qualify it with ultimately Right now, the analog option is out of reach except to those with the right skills. But the hardware isn't that expensive even now, and will only get cheaper. All it takes is someone to commodify it.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > Right now, the analog option is out of reach except to those with the right skills. What skills? Buying something online, then plugging it in once it shows up on your doorstep?
  - pilgrimfff 4y ago
    If there are out-of-the-box options now, then yeah, it could be as you describe. If you're assuming everyone knows how to wire up motors to a microcontroller and get the software set up and calibrated, that's not accurate. If you want to minimize that to a term besides "skills," that's your prerogative.
  - drdaeman 4y ago
    I don't think there are any commercial-grade hardware gaming aids on the market right now. If we don't count gaming keyboards and mouses with macro functionality (some folks consider those "cheats") All the devices I've seen were hobbyist DIY proof-of-concept hardware. And if we're talking about real hardware assist (a machine that sees a screen and helps human operator with their inputs), it needs a machine vision trained for a specific game/setup and that's also quite an effort.

prvit 4y ago

> If the hardware is banned, I need to wait a few days before my replacement hardware is there, or with software I just update and restart. Except perhaps the first few iterations, the hardware won’t be banned. You’ll just have to load a software update for your DMA hardware.

maccard 4y ago
Great, so for the first few iterations hardware bans are effevtive!
- prvit 4y ago
  Those first few iterations are already happening.

cowtools 4y ago

How could the cheating hardware be banned? it is general-purpose, there is no change in the programming of the host computer that couldn't be combated by reprogramming the cheating device. Security-by-obscurity is a game of cat-and-mouse where the cat is blind and the mouse is invulnerable.

maccard 4y ago
The hardware isn't banned, the player is banned if the anticheat detects the hardware being used. The hardware might be reprogrammable and self modifying at some point in the future, but until it is and it's widely available a root level anticheat is adequate protection.
- cowtools 4y ago
  The player is not banned. The player's account is banned. It is a free game- they can make as many accounts as they like. The hardware will become widely available once kernel-level anticheat becomes widely used. >if the anticheat detects the hardware being used. The only thing the anticheat will be able to detect is ordinary hardware. My cheating device will capture input from HDMI or PCI, the software sees it as a graphics card or a display. My cheating device lets me inspect memory directly, the motherboard just sees a normal stick of RAM. My cheating device lets me bhop and aimbot- the OS just sees an ordinary USB keyboard and mouse
  - maccard 4y ago
    > The player is not banned. The player's account is banned. It is a free game- they can make as many accounts as they like. You're right and my wording was sloppy. Often account bans come with "hardware" bans which are an attempt at stopping this from happening but like any other form of anticheat they're not 100% effective (and nor do they need to be to be worth having). > The hardware will become widely available once kernel-level anticheat becomes widely used. Sure, and then the barrier for entry has been raised to buying the correct hardware, having it and keeping it up to date. > The only thing the anticheat will be able to detect is ordinary hardware. That's a very bold claim. There's no reason to assume that the hardware will match exactly - I expect that as the cheaters pick devices to spoof the cheat detectors will look for (and find) discrepancies.
  - drdaeman 4y ago
    Regarding the hardware detection - there's always way to up the game and make the system totally airgapped. It is not impossible to have mechanical actuators pressing keys and moving a mouse, and a webcam watching a real monitor. While that's an awful lot of work compared to just reading data off a bus and simulating a HUD device, consider that some decades ago (when the fight was entirely about API hooking and ReadProcessMemory) DMA snooping was considered merely an unrealistic, theoretical possibility.

pilgrimfff 4y ago

That's why I have to qualify it with ultimately Right now, the analog option is out of reach except to those with the right skills. But the hardware isn't that expensive even now, and will only get cheaper. All it takes is someone to commodify it.

josephcsible 4y ago
> Right now, the analog option is out of reach except to those with the right skills. What skills? Buying something online, then plugging it in once it shows up on your doorstep?
- pilgrimfff 4y ago
  If there are out-of-the-box options now, then yeah, it could be as you describe. If you're assuming everyone knows how to wire up motors to a microcontroller and get the software set up and calibrated, that's not accurate. If you want to minimize that to a term besides "skills," that's your prerogative.
- drdaeman 4y ago
  I don't think there are any commercial-grade hardware gaming aids on the market right now. If we don't count gaming keyboards and mouses with macro functionality (some folks consider those "cheats") All the devices I've seen were hobbyist DIY proof-of-concept hardware. And if we're talking about real hardware assist (a machine that sees a screen and helps human operator with their inputs), it needs a machine vision trained for a specific game/setup and that's also quite an effort.