5 ms·

Amazon's Book Piracy Problem

77 points by softwaredoug 4y ago

ykevinator2 4y ago
warkdarrior 4y ago
Author offers book at inaccessible price, then complains when it is pirated. Information will find a way to be free!
- diek00 4y ago
- Gigachad 4y ago
  If it was as simple as that it wouldn’t be an interesting story. The story is that someone started selling the authors book illegally and collected proceeds off this sale. World of difference between just creating a book torrent and actually putting it up for sale and making a profit.
- HelloNurse 4y ago
  Counterfeiters will find a way to be sued. And if Amazon facilitates counterfeiting...
- ChrisRR 4y ago
  Inaccessible? Just because a text book was priced above $10?
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    Yes
- dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
  Information already found a way as it's been on LibGen for a long time. What we are discussing now is completely different: someone is profiting from the guy's work using Amazon's platform and this problem extends not to just other authors but all kinds of goods that are counterfeit. This hurts the original creators and vendors and acts as a disincentive in creating value. In the end, it hurts everybody.
- angst_ridden 4y ago
  Intellectual property as a concept has been ruthlessly abused by large corporations, and as a result, small creators get their labor stolen and it gets justified because “information wants to be free.”
- xtracto 4y ago
  Oh my, a digital book for almost $40 bucks. The book must be really good.
birdyrooster 4y ago
> creating a greyscale version would IMO > drastically lower the user experience > with my book). But it would also be more accessible for people who are color blind, which would be cool.
- harvey9 4y ago
  Unless the book colours are already chosen to achieve this.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  If the e-book is similarly dependent on colour, most e-book readers won't provide a particularly good experience either. Yes, it's possible to read on an emissive tablet, and there are some (limited) colour e-book readers. But most are at best greyscale, if not strictly black-and-white.
- ChrisRR 4y ago
  Depends on the colours used. The author may have already considered their use of colours, or may have just got lucky and not used any clashing colour combinations.
Gigachad 4y ago
If Amazon wants to avoid responsibility here, they should collect a verified legal identity for all sellers and then the author can just sue the pirate for the full price (on his site) for every copy that was sold on Amazon.
- runnerup 4y ago
  Seems like to avoid legal responsibility they can just continue doing what they’re doing. I’d personally like to change this with respect to consumer safety and counterfeit goods, but our views/opinions don’t seem to have legal backing.
- ItsBob 4y ago
  I worked in the Amazon warehouse for a while and (if my memory is correct) for this to work, Amazon would need to have a dedicated area for each vendor so that all vendor X goods are in bay Y, for example but costs would soar! However, they currently don't do that - Everything gets put anywhere there is space. There are some areas where stuff is put all together, like for example, there may be a shelf space full of a particular brand of superglue. If more comes in, even from a different vendor, as long as it is given the same ASIN (I think that's how it works - the ASIN is Amazon's internal ID system, sort of) then you can put that superglue with the other superglue in the same shelf space. That means you don't know who's superglue came from what vendor! So if you received fake superglue and it came out of that shelf with superglue from 10 different vendors, which one sold you the fake? It's a brilliant system all round: storage is cheap so the vendor doesn't pay high costs, Amazon keeps their costs low as their storage space is fully utilized. The downside is that counterfeit orgs know this and it's easy to game! Amazon can legitimately say that they don't know which vendor is the guilty party and no one can prove that vendor X sent in dodgy goods. Not sure if that's a legal defense or not but they have lots of money and you don't! In fact, I remember someone a few years back on HN mentioned they were kicked off Amazon due to selling counterfeit DVD's (maybe CD's!) even though they were co-mingled so there was no way to tell.
  - ideamotor 4y ago
    Physical space shouldn’t matter. This info can be tracked.
bsder 4y ago
I'm really surprised nobody has gone class action on Amazon on this. Every single successful author seems to have hit this on Amazon. It seems like this should be worth a stupid amount of money and well worth taking Amazon on.
HelloNurse 4y ago
I bought somewhat counterfeit books at least twice on Amazon, several years ago: a real bookseller confused a probably legit cheap paperback reprint with the "good" hardcover edition of an expensive book (it was such a bad edition that it claimed the same ISBN) and an unknown seller sent me a horrible POD paperback instead of the claimed old stock paperback. In both cases, discussion with people provided full refunds; but now ordering old and/or expensive books on Amazon seems futile.
- sasaf5 4y ago
  Since 2016 half of the engineering textbooks I ordered on Amazon has been a shaddy reprint. Most I managed to get a refund, but the process is slow since the shipping is international. After that, I only buy from local stores or directly from the author/editor.
SilverBirch 4y ago
I think the entire point of this is Amazon doesn't have a piracy problem. You have a piracy problem. We just have this bizarre corporatocracy where if you infringe Amazon's copyright, they're going to fuck you up. If you Amazon infringes your copyright, tough luck. Maybe if you're lucky they'll fix it at some point after they've already fucked your business. It's this bizarre attitude in the US that the bigger and more powerful you are, the less responsible you are for anything you do wrong. Amazon's approach on this is clear anti-competitive behavior. You get better protection from being pirated on their platform only if you distribute with them.
- candiodari 4y ago
  Perhaps a bit less dramatic: middlemen (except in egregious cases) are not considered guilty. They're just middlemen. Amazon is not a bookseller, they're simply selling website, payment handling, stocking, even book printing ... services to the real bookseller, and that real bookseller is the one infringing copyright. We just need to tighten what would be reasonable standard for middlemen to assure copyright is not violated.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
    > We just need This "just" hasn't happened for several years, so what makes you think anyone will do anything about it?
  - buran77 4y ago
    I guess it all depends on how interested someone is in the specific problem. The war on drugs makes a mule an accomplice. The war on piracy makes a hosting platform an accomplice. Particularly when they are aware of the issue and don't act. Since Amazon would clearly act if their own products or brands were impacted it stands to reason that not only are they complicit in committing that crime and providing assistance but also that they abuse their position to selectively enforce rules. Of course there's no incentive to do anything to change this particularly in lobby driven parts of the world where the benefit of the company is paramount. After all the company is the one filling the pockets of legislators and judges.
  - 4y ago
b_mc2 4y ago
François Chollet posted some more information on Twitter about this, including some pictures of counterfeits. https://twitter.com/fchollet/status/1550932298572263424 https://twitter.com/fchollet/status/1550932298572263424
floor_ 4y ago
I have a few computer books from amazon that say "NOT FOR RESALE OUTSIDE OF INDIA" in them that were sent straight from an amazon warehouse to me.
open-source-ux 4y ago
Here are some alternative (English-language) online bookstores - some ship internationally. Some caveats: store selection and discounts will be varied compared to Amazon, and these stores sell new books (not second-hand titles). - Wordery (UK-based, but free worldwide shipping) - Book Depository (Owned by Amazon but appears to operately seprately from Amazon. Free worldwide shipping) - Bookshop.org (US, UK and Spain) UK-only - Books etc (free UK delivery) - Hive (free UK delivery) - Blackwells (free UK delivery) - Foyles (free UK delivery over £25) - Waterstones (free UK delivery over £25) - WHSmith (free UK delivery over £30) It's also possible to buy titles direct from some publishers.
- thechao 4y ago
  Here's some Portland OR, and Texas stores: - https://www.powells.com/ https://www.powells.com/ - https://www.bookpeople.com/ https://www.bookpeople.com/ - hpb.com (half price books) At least in store, HPB sells at the half the cover price (modulo collectibility). This makes getting into 60s/70s scifi schlock especially cheap.
frognumber 4y ago
That Amazon doesn't treat counterfeits as a problem mean they lost much of my business. I stopped buying any food or medical products on Amazon or eBay after a bad experience where I bought name-brand vanilla for a suspiciously low price, and it came in slightly suspicious packaging. I couldn't decide what to do with it. It stood untouched until the expiration date, when I tossed it. I have no idea if it was good or bad, but I've gotten enough fakes from both that it wasn't worth the risk.
stevage 4y ago
At the very least when Amazon acknowledges that they have sold counterfeit copies of your work, they should be required to pay you what they paid the counterfeiter.

77 points by softwaredoug 4y ago

ykevinator2 4y ago

warkdarrior 4y ago

Author offers book at inaccessible price, then complains when it is pirated. Information will find a way to be free!

diek00 4y ago
Gigachad 4y ago
If it was as simple as that it wouldn’t be an interesting story. The story is that someone started selling the authors book illegally and collected proceeds off this sale. World of difference between just creating a book torrent and actually putting it up for sale and making a profit.
HelloNurse 4y ago
Counterfeiters will find a way to be sued. And if Amazon facilitates counterfeiting...
ChrisRR 4y ago
Inaccessible? Just because a text book was priced above $10?
- aaomidi 4y ago
  Yes
dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
Information already found a way as it's been on LibGen for a long time. What we are discussing now is completely different: someone is profiting from the guy's work using Amazon's platform and this problem extends not to just other authors but all kinds of goods that are counterfeit. This hurts the original creators and vendors and acts as a disincentive in creating value. In the end, it hurts everybody.
angst_ridden 4y ago
Intellectual property as a concept has been ruthlessly abused by large corporations, and as a result, small creators get their labor stolen and it gets justified because “information wants to be free.”
xtracto 4y ago
Oh my, a digital book for almost $40 bucks. The book must be really good.

birdyrooster 4y ago

> creating a greyscale version would IMO > drastically lower the user experience > with my book). But it would also be more accessible for people who are color blind, which would be cool.

harvey9 4y ago
Unless the book colours are already chosen to achieve this.
dredmorbius 4y ago
If the e-book is similarly dependent on colour, most e-book readers won't provide a particularly good experience either. Yes, it's possible to read on an emissive tablet, and there are some (limited) colour e-book readers. But most are at best greyscale, if not strictly black-and-white.
ChrisRR 4y ago
Depends on the colours used. The author may have already considered their use of colours, or may have just got lucky and not used any clashing colour combinations.

Gigachad 4y ago

If Amazon wants to avoid responsibility here, they should collect a verified legal identity for all sellers and then the author can just sue the pirate for the full price (on his site) for every copy that was sold on Amazon.

runnerup 4y ago
Seems like to avoid legal responsibility they can just continue doing what they’re doing. I’d personally like to change this with respect to consumer safety and counterfeit goods, but our views/opinions don’t seem to have legal backing.
ItsBob 4y ago
I worked in the Amazon warehouse for a while and (if my memory is correct) for this to work, Amazon would need to have a dedicated area for each vendor so that all vendor X goods are in bay Y, for example but costs would soar! However, they currently don't do that - Everything gets put anywhere there is space. There are some areas where stuff is put all together, like for example, there may be a shelf space full of a particular brand of superglue. If more comes in, even from a different vendor, as long as it is given the same ASIN (I think that's how it works - the ASIN is Amazon's internal ID system, sort of) then you can put that superglue with the other superglue in the same shelf space. That means you don't know who's superglue came from what vendor! So if you received fake superglue and it came out of that shelf with superglue from 10 different vendors, which one sold you the fake? It's a brilliant system all round: storage is cheap so the vendor doesn't pay high costs, Amazon keeps their costs low as their storage space is fully utilized. The downside is that counterfeit orgs know this and it's easy to game! Amazon can legitimately say that they don't know which vendor is the guilty party and no one can prove that vendor X sent in dodgy goods. Not sure if that's a legal defense or not but they have lots of money and you don't! In fact, I remember someone a few years back on HN mentioned they were kicked off Amazon due to selling counterfeit DVD's (maybe CD's!) even though they were co-mingled so there was no way to tell.
- ideamotor 4y ago
  Physical space shouldn’t matter. This info can be tracked.

bsder 4y ago

I'm really surprised nobody has gone class action on Amazon on this. Every single successful author seems to have hit this on Amazon. It seems like this should be worth a stupid amount of money and well worth taking Amazon on.

HelloNurse 4y ago

I bought somewhat counterfeit books at least twice on Amazon, several years ago: a real bookseller confused a probably legit cheap paperback reprint with the "good" hardcover edition of an expensive book (it was such a bad edition that it claimed the same ISBN) and an unknown seller sent me a horrible POD paperback instead of the claimed old stock paperback. In both cases, discussion with people provided full refunds; but now ordering old and/or expensive books on Amazon seems futile.

sasaf5 4y ago
Since 2016 half of the engineering textbooks I ordered on Amazon has been a shaddy reprint. Most I managed to get a refund, but the process is slow since the shipping is international. After that, I only buy from local stores or directly from the author/editor.

SilverBirch 4y ago

I think the entire point of this is Amazon doesn't have a piracy problem. You have a piracy problem. We just have this bizarre corporatocracy where if you infringe Amazon's copyright, they're going to fuck you up. If you Amazon infringes your copyright, tough luck. Maybe if you're lucky they'll fix it at some point after they've already fucked your business. It's this bizarre attitude in the US that the bigger and more powerful you are, the less responsible you are for anything you do wrong. Amazon's approach on this is clear anti-competitive behavior. You get better protection from being pirated on their platform only if you distribute with them.

candiodari 4y ago
Perhaps a bit less dramatic: middlemen (except in egregious cases) are not considered guilty. They're just middlemen. Amazon is not a bookseller, they're simply selling website, payment handling, stocking, even book printing ... services to the real bookseller, and that real bookseller is the one infringing copyright. We just need to tighten what would be reasonable standard for middlemen to assure copyright is not violated.
- dvfjsdhgfv 4y ago
  > We just need This "just" hasn't happened for several years, so what makes you think anyone will do anything about it?
- buran77 4y ago
  I guess it all depends on how interested someone is in the specific problem. The war on drugs makes a mule an accomplice. The war on piracy makes a hosting platform an accomplice. Particularly when they are aware of the issue and don't act. Since Amazon would clearly act if their own products or brands were impacted it stands to reason that not only are they complicit in committing that crime and providing assistance but also that they abuse their position to selectively enforce rules. Of course there's no incentive to do anything to change this particularly in lobby driven parts of the world where the benefit of the company is paramount. After all the company is the one filling the pockets of legislators and judges.
- 4y ago

b_mc2 4y ago

François Chollet posted some more information on Twitter about this, including some pictures of counterfeits. https://twitter.com/fchollet/status/1550932298572263424 https://twitter.com/fchollet/status/1550932298572263424

floor_ 4y ago

I have a few computer books from amazon that say "NOT FOR RESALE OUTSIDE OF INDIA" in them that were sent straight from an amazon warehouse to me.

open-source-ux 4y ago

Here are some alternative (English-language) online bookstores - some ship internationally. Some caveats: store selection and discounts will be varied compared to Amazon, and these stores sell new books (not second-hand titles). - Wordery (UK-based, but free worldwide shipping) - Book Depository (Owned by Amazon but appears to operately seprately from Amazon. Free worldwide shipping) - Bookshop.org (US, UK and Spain) UK-only - Books etc (free UK delivery) - Hive (free UK delivery) - Blackwells (free UK delivery) - Foyles (free UK delivery over £25) - Waterstones (free UK delivery over £25) - WHSmith (free UK delivery over £30) It's also possible to buy titles direct from some publishers.

thechao 4y ago
Here's some Portland OR, and Texas stores: - https://www.powells.com/ https://www.powells.com/ - https://www.bookpeople.com/ https://www.bookpeople.com/ - hpb.com (half price books) At least in store, HPB sells at the half the cover price (modulo collectibility). This makes getting into 60s/70s scifi schlock especially cheap.

frognumber 4y ago

That Amazon doesn't treat counterfeits as a problem mean they lost much of my business. I stopped buying any food or medical products on Amazon or eBay after a bad experience where I bought name-brand vanilla for a suspiciously low price, and it came in slightly suspicious packaging. I couldn't decide what to do with it. It stood untouched until the expiration date, when I tossed it. I have no idea if it was good or bad, but I've gotten enough fakes from both that it wasn't worth the risk.

stevage 4y ago

At the very least when Amazon acknowledges that they have sold counterfeit copies of your work, they should be required to pay you what they paid the counterfeiter.