6 ms·

Berating climate sceptics isn’t enough. Disruptive protest the only way forward

7 points by nigerian1981 4y ago

micahdeath 4y ago
I'm pretty sure that by being an a** is not the answer, people will hunker down even more...
codefreeordie 4y ago
Remember that article yesterday bemoaning the widespread support of political violence? This is that thing
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Everybody thinks it's justified in support of their cause. Not any other cause - just theirs.
eesmith 4y ago
Philosophy Tube's "Violence & Protest" - "A video about protest, direct action, and revolution in the context of the climate crisis" - covered this topic, at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh4G1Gjv7bA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh4G1Gjv7bA Quotes https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v29/n06/john-lanchester/warmer-warmer https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v29/n06/john-lanchester/warm... from 2007: > It is strange and striking that climate change activists have not committed any acts of terrorism. After all, terrorism is for the individual by far the modern world’s most effective form of political action, and climate change is an issue about which people feel just as strongly as about, say, animal rights. This is especially noticeable when you bear in mind the ease of things like blowing up petrol stations, or vandalising SUVs. In cities, SUVs are loathed by everyone except the people who drive them; and in a city the size of London, a few dozen people could in a short space of time make the ownership of these cars effectively impossible, just by running keys down the side of them, at a cost to the owner of several thousand pounds a time. Say fifty people vandalising four cars each every night for a month: six thousand trashed SUVs in a month and the Chelsea tractors would soon be disappearing from our streets. So why don’t these things happen? Is it because the people who feel strongly about climate change are simply too nice, too educated, to do anything of the sort? (But terrorists are often highly educated.) Or is it that even the people who feel most strongly about climate change on some level can’t quite bring themselves to believe in it? ... > We deeply don’t want to believe this story.
- Bostonian 4y ago
  "blowing up petrol stations" can get people killed. Someone who advocates such terrorism does not have a valid complaint if they are the target of violence.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    I see two forms of complaint you might be referring to. I don't believe anyone carrying out "MASSIVEN KRIMINELLEN GEWALTTATEN" will fail to understand how the state-backed violence will be used against them. So yes, if they complain about that response, then I don't think it's all that valid. However, that does not mean that the original complaint - the lack of required and urgent response to the climate change crisis - is not valid. Suffragettes carried out a bombing and arson campaign. "Places that wealthy people, typically men, frequented were also burnt and destroyed whilst left unattended so that there was little risk to life, including cricket pavilions, horse-racing pavilions, churches, castles and the second homes of the wealthy. They also burnt the slogan "Votes for Women" into the grass of golf courses." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_... . That doesn't invalidate the complaint about the lack of woman suffrage.
  - codefreeordie 4y ago
    People love political violence in support of their views. It's only bad when their adversaries turn it back on them
- gus_massa 4y ago
  > Is it because the people who feel strongly about climate change are simply too nice, too educated, to do anything of the sort? Because a surveillance camera will catch you and you will have to pay to fix the car and some community service as part of your probation.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    We see pro-abortion activists in the US arrested during protests. We've seen anti-abortion activists murder doctors. We've seen Q-Anon supporters arrested for their attempted coup. We saw anti-nuclear activists jailed for their vandalism (famously including a nun). We've seen eco-terrorists and anti-vivisectionists sent to jail. Some suffragettes broke the law, deliberately and in public, and the more militant suffragettes committed vandalism, set off bombs, and more. One thousand suffragettes were in jail. Many of these prisoners went on hunger strikes. I don't think any of these people would have been dissuaded by fines and community service.
giantg2 4y ago
Did I miss something? So how do they see disruptive protest making a difference? I assume the people in power will use government condoned force to remove the "problem makers".
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  Exactly. Ecoterrorists would turn itself into an easy target for politicians trying to pickup some preferences. And the more green policies will bite into common folks wallets, the easier it is going to be.

7 points by nigerian1981 4y ago

micahdeath 4y ago

I'm pretty sure that by being an a** is not the answer, people will hunker down even more...

codefreeordie 4y ago

Remember that article yesterday bemoaning the widespread support of political violence? This is that thing

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Everybody thinks it's justified in support of their cause. Not any other cause - just theirs.

eesmith 4y ago

Philosophy Tube's "Violence & Protest" - "A video about protest, direct action, and revolution in the context of the climate crisis" - covered this topic, at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh4G1Gjv7bA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh4G1Gjv7bA Quotes https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v29/n06/john-lanchester/warmer-warmer https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v29/n06/john-lanchester/warm... from 2007: > It is strange and striking that climate change activists have not committed any acts of terrorism. After all, terrorism is for the individual by far the modern world’s most effective form of political action, and climate change is an issue about which people feel just as strongly as about, say, animal rights. This is especially noticeable when you bear in mind the ease of things like blowing up petrol stations, or vandalising SUVs. In cities, SUVs are loathed by everyone except the people who drive them; and in a city the size of London, a few dozen people could in a short space of time make the ownership of these cars effectively impossible, just by running keys down the side of them, at a cost to the owner of several thousand pounds a time. Say fifty people vandalising four cars each every night for a month: six thousand trashed SUVs in a month and the Chelsea tractors would soon be disappearing from our streets. So why don’t these things happen? Is it because the people who feel strongly about climate change are simply too nice, too educated, to do anything of the sort? (But terrorists are often highly educated.) Or is it that even the people who feel most strongly about climate change on some level can’t quite bring themselves to believe in it? ... > We deeply don’t want to believe this story.

Bostonian 4y ago
"blowing up petrol stations" can get people killed. Someone who advocates such terrorism does not have a valid complaint if they are the target of violence.
- eesmith 4y ago
  I see two forms of complaint you might be referring to. I don't believe anyone carrying out "MASSIVEN KRIMINELLEN GEWALTTATEN" will fail to understand how the state-backed violence will be used against them. So yes, if they complain about that response, then I don't think it's all that valid. However, that does not mean that the original complaint - the lack of required and urgent response to the climate change crisis - is not valid. Suffragettes carried out a bombing and arson campaign. "Places that wealthy people, typically men, frequented were also burnt and destroyed whilst left unattended so that there was little risk to life, including cricket pavilions, horse-racing pavilions, churches, castles and the second homes of the wealthy. They also burnt the slogan "Votes for Women" into the grass of golf courses." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_... . That doesn't invalidate the complaint about the lack of woman suffrage.
- codefreeordie 4y ago
  People love political violence in support of their views. It's only bad when their adversaries turn it back on them
gus_massa 4y ago
> Is it because the people who feel strongly about climate change are simply too nice, too educated, to do anything of the sort? Because a surveillance camera will catch you and you will have to pay to fix the car and some community service as part of your probation.
- eesmith 4y ago
  We see pro-abortion activists in the US arrested during protests. We've seen anti-abortion activists murder doctors. We've seen Q-Anon supporters arrested for their attempted coup. We saw anti-nuclear activists jailed for their vandalism (famously including a nun). We've seen eco-terrorists and anti-vivisectionists sent to jail. Some suffragettes broke the law, deliberately and in public, and the more militant suffragettes committed vandalism, set off bombs, and more. One thousand suffragettes were in jail. Many of these prisoners went on hunger strikes. I don't think any of these people would have been dissuaded by fines and community service.

giantg2 4y ago

Did I miss something? So how do they see disruptive protest making a difference? I assume the people in power will use government condoned force to remove the "problem makers".

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
Exactly. Ecoterrorists would turn itself into an easy target for politicians trying to pickup some preferences. And the more green policies will bite into common folks wallets, the easier it is going to be.