4 ms·

Was that an issue with them being Indian, or that your CEO did a terrible job of vetting the firm he hired?

civilized 4y ago
From what I hear this is a pretty common experience. It would be interesting to hear the other side - when outsourcing works. I think it tends to be when the task is extremely well-defined, like "follow this standard workflow to deal with this stream of requests to grant/remove access".
- causality0 4y ago
  Right. The impact of different cultures and worldviews cannot be overstated. Mental interpretation of general directives varies wildly enough between Americans of different backgrounds, different ages, different neurodivergences to create problems even with them all sharing the same language and culture. The further you go the less you can rely on everybody being on the same page.
cultofmetatron 4y ago
You get what you pay for. our devops guy is in India. He does a great job and communicates well. I wouldn't say he's cheap though. We went with him because he was the best applicant and he's paid accordingly.
- petra 4y ago
  Not cheaper than his US equivalent?
  - cultofmetatron 4y ago
    we pay him in line with someone in the midwest would be making. its significantly more than someone in southeast Asia. Its worth it to make sure he doesn't jump ship.
sarchertech 4y ago
When it comes to working with outsourced devs, nationality doesn’t really matter when it comes to dev competence. The problem is not that there are no good devs in India, the problem is that there are no good devs in India working for $10k a year. At least not for long.
citizenpaul 4y ago
It is a hugely complex socioeconomic issue, nothing to do with race. Many of the people were quite nice to work with but were trapped in a race to the bottom that their entire tech industry is based on. I know from some of the people that I talked to that they literally quit to change companies over a less than $100 pay raise. Its that bad. India is a very poor country overall. There is a huge amount of dog eat dog derived from the fact that they are only being hired for the low cost and no other consideration. To directly answer your question, the CEO had them do one other project before for another company and it went ok. I guess I wasn't there for that.
jdlshore 4y ago
The problem is outsourcing firms. The job market is so hot that developers jump ship all the time. You’ll also interface with a “project manager” whose job will be to forward what you say to the developers. And finally, outsourcing is an entry-level job—more experienced developers move to better positions. Companies that have had success “outsourcing” to India open up their own office and hire permanent employees.
haliskerbas 4y ago
Just like we love to say “cheap Chinese” for physical goods, we say “subpar Indian outsourcing…” for digital goods/tech support. Even though most of what we use, cheap or not, comes from China. And many devs, talented or not, are from India. I recall a tenured professor at a well known university who liked to bring the Indian accent along (he’s a white dude) when explaining “how bad India is at writing software”….
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  I think it's a different phenomenon. There are plenty of extremely good devs in India, it's just that they won't work for peanuts. They will be paid similarly to devs in some western countries.
petesergeant 4y ago
> Was that an issue with them being Indian There are a gazillion very talented Indian developers, but they're (usually) not the ones working at budget outsourcing shops...
Spooky23 4y ago
Managing contractors is a skill. India, being a major destination for offshore outsourcing has a business culture in this space that has to be managed both actively by people and by contract. It’s no different than anything else. A home builder needs contractors to scale and needs to learn how to manage contracts and vendors as well. If you’re selling services as a contractor, how you work for a auto company is different than a bank or a government agency. The answer to your question is always “yes”. The contractor oversold its ability and failed to retain talent. The CEO believed what he wanted to hear and didn’t didn’t due appropriate due diligence as he either didn’t trust or has already fired his own people. I’ve never seen a successful “lets outsource this to X to save money” initiative that was a success from a best value perspective. (Many succeed in saving short-term money though) I have seen “let’s outsource this function outside of our wheelhouse” projects awarded to offshore companies that have worked out well.

From what I hear this is a pretty common experience. It would be interesting to hear the other side - when outsourcing works. I think it tends to be when the task is extremely well-defined, like "follow this standard workflow to deal with this stream of requests to grant/remove access".

causality0 4y ago
Right. The impact of different cultures and worldviews cannot be overstated. Mental interpretation of general directives varies wildly enough between Americans of different backgrounds, different ages, different neurodivergences to create problems even with them all sharing the same language and culture. The further you go the less you can rely on everybody being on the same page.

cultofmetatron 4y ago

You get what you pay for. our devops guy is in India. He does a great job and communicates well. I wouldn't say he's cheap though. We went with him because he was the best applicant and he's paid accordingly.

petra 4y ago
Not cheaper than his US equivalent?
- cultofmetatron 4y ago
  we pay him in line with someone in the midwest would be making. its significantly more than someone in southeast Asia. Its worth it to make sure he doesn't jump ship.

sarchertech 4y ago

When it comes to working with outsourced devs, nationality doesn’t really matter when it comes to dev competence. The problem is not that there are no good devs in India, the problem is that there are no good devs in India working for $10k a year. At least not for long.

citizenpaul 4y ago

It is a hugely complex socioeconomic issue, nothing to do with race. Many of the people were quite nice to work with but were trapped in a race to the bottom that their entire tech industry is based on. I know from some of the people that I talked to that they literally quit to change companies over a less than $100 pay raise. Its that bad. India is a very poor country overall. There is a huge amount of dog eat dog derived from the fact that they are only being hired for the low cost and no other consideration. To directly answer your question, the CEO had them do one other project before for another company and it went ok. I guess I wasn't there for that.

jdlshore 4y ago

The problem is outsourcing firms. The job market is so hot that developers jump ship all the time. You’ll also interface with a “project manager” whose job will be to forward what you say to the developers. And finally, outsourcing is an entry-level job—more experienced developers move to better positions. Companies that have had success “outsourcing” to India open up their own office and hire permanent employees.

haliskerbas 4y ago

Just like we love to say “cheap Chinese” for physical goods, we say “subpar Indian outsourcing…” for digital goods/tech support. Even though most of what we use, cheap or not, comes from China. And many devs, talented or not, are from India. I recall a tenured professor at a well known university who liked to bring the Indian accent along (he’s a white dude) when explaining “how bad India is at writing software”….

sudosysgen 4y ago
I think it's a different phenomenon. There are plenty of extremely good devs in India, it's just that they won't work for peanuts. They will be paid similarly to devs in some western countries.

petesergeant 4y ago

> Was that an issue with them being Indian There are a gazillion very talented Indian developers, but they're (usually) not the ones working at budget outsourcing shops...

Spooky23 4y ago

Managing contractors is a skill. India, being a major destination for offshore outsourcing has a business culture in this space that has to be managed both actively by people and by contract. It’s no different than anything else. A home builder needs contractors to scale and needs to learn how to manage contracts and vendors as well. If you’re selling services as a contractor, how you work for a auto company is different than a bank or a government agency. The answer to your question is always “yes”. The contractor oversold its ability and failed to retain talent. The CEO believed what he wanted to hear and didn’t didn’t due appropriate due diligence as he either didn’t trust or has already fired his own people. I’ve never seen a successful “lets outsource this to X to save money” initiative that was a success from a best value perspective. (Many succeed in saving short-term money though) I have seen “let’s outsource this function outside of our wheelhouse” projects awarded to offshore companies that have worked out well.