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Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce, so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato.

atwood22 4y ago
Words mean what the listener understands. Most people understand ketchup to mean “tomato ketchup” so the person you’re replying to is correct.
technothrasher 4y ago
I thought ketchup was originally mushroom based.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce No, it doesn't. > so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato. It did, but ketchups before tomato weren't necessarily fruit based. The original British version (and thus, the first American version, from which the other pre-tomato version derived) was mushroom based. Fruit, nut, egg, and bivalve-based versions all existed. (And the historical origin is in Asian fermented fish and soy sauces.)
- brians 4y ago
  Is it Asian? I'd assumed—with no real support whatsoever—that it was descended from Roman garum, a fermented fish sauce that's a lot closer.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    Looking it up again (was relying on memory before), it was apparently specifically Indonesian kecaps that inspired both the sauce and it's name.
    - johnnymorgan 4y ago
      You rock mate, thank you
  - jfengel 4y ago
    It's a weird quirk of history. Garum was forgotten for centuries, then the same basic concept reintroduced much later from Asia. It still wasn't used quite the way garum was, but it did give rise to things like Worcestershire sauce, and various ketchups (fermented vegetable pastes). Tomato ketchup came much later, and it wasn't until Heinz perfected it that it reached the form that's ubiquitous now.
- johnnymorgan 4y ago
  I have to frickin try this now!! Dude thank you for the knowledge drop, I had no idea it first started as mushroom based.
IncRnd 4y ago
> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce That's not true. Ketchup is believed to have come "ultimately from Chinese via Malay kicap, from Min Nan 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish broth”), though precise path is unclear – there are related words in various Chinese dialects, and it may have entered English directly from Chinese. Cognate to Indonesian kecap, ketjap (“soy sauce”). Various other theories exist – see Ketchup: Etymology for extended discussion." [1] This etymology places the origin of ketchup closer to "fish sauce", pickled cabbage with meat, or conceptually even yogurt or bread! > so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato. Yes, but it has nothing to do with fruits, unless you are fermenting them to get rid of bad-bacteria and maybe increase shelf-life. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ketchup https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ketchup
- technothrasher 4y ago
  After reading the further Wikipedia entry on the etymology of the term, it feels like it should be stressed more strongly that the etymology you quoted is not necessarily the strongest contender, but just one of a few that may or may not be correct.
  - IncRnd 4y ago
    Would you be specific as to what etymology you mean? I linked the extended discussion above. The Wiktionary page I linked to, as well as many other etymological pages on the web say what I did above. There are many things that could be true, but they do not all have the same likelihood. Even NPR [1] and the history channel [2] have pages on the etymology of ketchup. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/02/248195661/ketchup-the-all-american-condiment-that-comes-from-asia https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/02/248195661... [2] https://www.history.com/news/ketchup-surprising-ancient-history https://www.history.com/news/ketchup-surprising-ancient-hist...
    - squeaky-clean 4y ago
      The wiktionary link earlier says to visit this for an extended discussion which provides a few more possible origins. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology

Words mean what the listener understands. Most people understand ketchup to mean “tomato ketchup” so the person you’re replying to is correct.

technothrasher 4y ago

I thought ketchup was originally mushroom based.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce No, it doesn't. > so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato. It did, but ketchups before tomato weren't necessarily fruit based. The original British version (and thus, the first American version, from which the other pre-tomato version derived) was mushroom based. Fruit, nut, egg, and bivalve-based versions all existed. (And the historical origin is in Asian fermented fish and soy sauces.)

brians 4y ago
Is it Asian? I'd assumed—with no real support whatsoever—that it was descended from Roman garum, a fermented fish sauce that's a lot closer.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  Looking it up again (was relying on memory before), it was apparently specifically Indonesian kecaps that inspired both the sauce and it's name.
  - johnnymorgan 4y ago
    You rock mate, thank you
- jfengel 4y ago
  It's a weird quirk of history. Garum was forgotten for centuries, then the same basic concept reintroduced much later from Asia. It still wasn't used quite the way garum was, but it did give rise to things like Worcestershire sauce, and various ketchups (fermented vegetable pastes). Tomato ketchup came much later, and it wasn't until Heinz perfected it that it reached the form that's ubiquitous now.
johnnymorgan 4y ago
I have to frickin try this now!! Dude thank you for the knowledge drop, I had no idea it first started as mushroom based.

IncRnd 4y ago

> Ketchup really just means a fruit based sauce That's not true. Ketchup is believed to have come "ultimately from Chinese via Malay kicap, from Min Nan 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish broth”), though precise path is unclear – there are related words in various Chinese dialects, and it may have entered English directly from Chinese. Cognate to Indonesian kecap, ketjap (“soy sauce”). Various other theories exist – see Ketchup: Etymology for extended discussion." [1] This etymology places the origin of ketchup closer to "fish sauce", pickled cabbage with meat, or conceptually even yogurt or bread! > so it long preceded the arrival of the tomato. Yes, but it has nothing to do with fruits, unless you are fermenting them to get rid of bad-bacteria and maybe increase shelf-life. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ketchup https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ketchup

technothrasher 4y ago
After reading the further Wikipedia entry on the etymology of the term, it feels like it should be stressed more strongly that the etymology you quoted is not necessarily the strongest contender, but just one of a few that may or may not be correct.
- IncRnd 4y ago
  Would you be specific as to what etymology you mean? I linked the extended discussion above. The Wiktionary page I linked to, as well as many other etymological pages on the web say what I did above. There are many things that could be true, but they do not all have the same likelihood. Even NPR [1] and the history channel [2] have pages on the etymology of ketchup. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/02/248195661/ketchup-the-all-american-condiment-that-comes-from-asia https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/02/248195661... [2] https://www.history.com/news/ketchup-surprising-ancient-history https://www.history.com/news/ketchup-surprising-ancient-hist...
  - squeaky-clean 4y ago
    The wiktionary link earlier says to visit this for an extended discussion which provides a few more possible origins. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology