3 ms·

We have known for a year that the vaccines don’t prevent the disease. Is there some reason we need to cover this again?

by melling 4y ago

kcplate 4y ago
Because the government is still actively pushing them.
- melling 4y ago
  i’m sorry, but you haven’t explained why people should not get vaccinated. It would help the discussion if people got right to the point.
  - kcplate 4y ago
    I never made the claim that people should not get vaccinated. What I said was—vaccines and boosters do not prevent you from catching it or getting sick. I also said that it does not appear that we know for sure that the vaccines and boosters actually make the disease milder because we don’t seem to have statistics that show an effective control group of non-vaccinated, first time sufferers of Covid 19 reactions to the existing variants. A year ago, we were being told by the same people telling us now that the vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease…that the same vaccines prevent people from catching Covid. We also know that these same people have intentionally misled, emphasized problematic studies that supported their POV, and downplayed good studies that did not support their POV. They have played politics with science and that is bad. So it’s important to look at this pragmatically. If the experts are telling us that their advice has evolved as their understanding of the disease has improved, it’s reasonable to assume their current advice is as problematic as their past advice.
    - melling 4y ago
      “What I said was—vaccines and boosters do not prevent you from catching it or getting sick. ” We knew this a year ago. I’m pretty sure from the current studies that we do know, or at least strongly believe, that the vaccines, etc do reduce hospitalizations and death. That would explain why they are recommended. However, if more data comes in, please update us.
      - kcplate 4y ago
        > We knew this a year ago. Really? July of 2021 both President Biden and Dr. Fauci we’re making the claim on television that the vaccines “prevented” people from catching Covid. If it was known a year ago that this was not true, but they said it anyway…do you believe that makes their case for vaccines today more persuasive? More likely—“Current studies” at that time lead them to “know, or at least strongly believe” that the vaccines did prevent contracting the virus. Either they were lying, or they were wrong. Either one of those reasons is enough for me to apply a fair dose of skepticism and pragmatism to the topic. Perhaps you just have more faith than I do that this time things are different.
        melling 4y ago
        Yep. Now please include a source for Dr. Fauci. This tactic where you tell us what someone said and it turns out to be wrong is getting old. He wasn’t sure in March but according to you he was sure in July “Fauci explains that it is not yet clear how effective the current vaccines are at curbing the spread of the virus from an immunized person to others. In other words, a vaccine will prevent the recipient from getting sick, but that person may still carry the virus and expose those who have not received the vaccine.” https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-fauci-vaccineeffectiveness/fact-check-faucis-comments-on-the-effectiveness-of-the-covid-19-vaccines-misconstrued-in-video-idUSL1N2L82Q4 https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-fauci-vaccineeffec...
        kcplate 4y ago
        Not July, but in late May of 2021. (appx 4min in to that interview there is an MSNBC clip from back then. So I am off by about 6 weeks. https://youtu.be/5qp1BWSAQkc https://youtu.be/5qp1BWSAQkc However, July 23rd 2021 Town Hall, Biden conveyed same thing. https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/fact-check-biden-cnn-town-hall-july/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/fact-check-biden-cnn... I can find no clips of Fauci “correcting” the president after that clip. Only after it became apparent to everyone that the vaccines were not effective at preventing Covid, did the administration start shifting the narrative to the prevention of disease severity talking point. Fact is, they were wrong, or they were lying to intentionally mislead to encourage vaccination. Either way, what they say now about it now should be examined skeptically.
beej71 4y ago
I haven't seen anything that says the vaccines had 0% efficacy. Link?
- kcplate 4y ago
  Never said this. What I have said is that we don’t seem to have an adequate control group to truly know or not what efficacy the vaccines have for the current variants or if the current variants are simply less severe. Almost every study the government touts for vaccine efficacy now relies on correlation instead of causation evidence. I think that gives us cause to look at the information from the government with a skeptical eye.
  - beej71 4y ago
    You did say "vaccines don’t prevent the disease". How is that different than 0% efficacy?

We have known for a year that the vaccines don’t prevent the disease. Is there some reason we need to cover this again?

kcplate 4y ago

Because the government is still actively pushing them.

melling 4y ago
i’m sorry, but you haven’t explained why people should not get vaccinated. It would help the discussion if people got right to the point.
- kcplate 4y ago
  I never made the claim that people should not get vaccinated. What I said was—vaccines and boosters do not prevent you from catching it or getting sick. I also said that it does not appear that we know for sure that the vaccines and boosters actually make the disease milder because we don’t seem to have statistics that show an effective control group of non-vaccinated, first time sufferers of Covid 19 reactions to the existing variants. A year ago, we were being told by the same people telling us now that the vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease…that the same vaccines prevent people from catching Covid. We also know that these same people have intentionally misled, emphasized problematic studies that supported their POV, and downplayed good studies that did not support their POV. They have played politics with science and that is bad. So it’s important to look at this pragmatically. If the experts are telling us that their advice has evolved as their understanding of the disease has improved, it’s reasonable to assume their current advice is as problematic as their past advice.
  - melling 4y ago
    “What I said was—vaccines and boosters do not prevent you from catching it or getting sick. ” We knew this a year ago. I’m pretty sure from the current studies that we do know, or at least strongly believe, that the vaccines, etc do reduce hospitalizations and death. That would explain why they are recommended. However, if more data comes in, please update us.
    - kcplate 4y ago
      > We knew this a year ago. Really? July of 2021 both President Biden and Dr. Fauci we’re making the claim on television that the vaccines “prevented” people from catching Covid. If it was known a year ago that this was not true, but they said it anyway…do you believe that makes their case for vaccines today more persuasive? More likely—“Current studies” at that time lead them to “know, or at least strongly believe” that the vaccines did prevent contracting the virus. Either they were lying, or they were wrong. Either one of those reasons is enough for me to apply a fair dose of skepticism and pragmatism to the topic. Perhaps you just have more faith than I do that this time things are different.
      - melling 4y ago
        Yep. Now please include a source for Dr. Fauci. This tactic where you tell us what someone said and it turns out to be wrong is getting old. He wasn’t sure in March but according to you he was sure in July “Fauci explains that it is not yet clear how effective the current vaccines are at curbing the spread of the virus from an immunized person to others. In other words, a vaccine will prevent the recipient from getting sick, but that person may still carry the virus and expose those who have not received the vaccine.” https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-fauci-vaccineeffectiveness/fact-check-faucis-comments-on-the-effectiveness-of-the-covid-19-vaccines-misconstrued-in-video-idUSL1N2L82Q4 https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-fauci-vaccineeffec...
        kcplate 4y ago
        Not July, but in late May of 2021. (appx 4min in to that interview there is an MSNBC clip from back then. So I am off by about 6 weeks. https://youtu.be/5qp1BWSAQkc https://youtu.be/5qp1BWSAQkc However, July 23rd 2021 Town Hall, Biden conveyed same thing. https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/fact-check-biden-cnn-town-hall-july/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/fact-check-biden-cnn... I can find no clips of Fauci “correcting” the president after that clip. Only after it became apparent to everyone that the vaccines were not effective at preventing Covid, did the administration start shifting the narrative to the prevention of disease severity talking point. Fact is, they were wrong, or they were lying to intentionally mislead to encourage vaccination. Either way, what they say now about it now should be examined skeptically.

beej71 4y ago

I haven't seen anything that says the vaccines had 0% efficacy. Link?

kcplate 4y ago
Never said this. What I have said is that we don’t seem to have an adequate control group to truly know or not what efficacy the vaccines have for the current variants or if the current variants are simply less severe. Almost every study the government touts for vaccine efficacy now relies on correlation instead of causation evidence. I think that gives us cause to look at the information from the government with a skeptical eye.
- beej71 4y ago
  You did say "vaccines don’t prevent the disease". How is that different than 0% efficacy?