4 ms·

The visceral discomfort you feel about having a surgery to change your body, how uncomfortable and wrong that feels, and how unhappy you would be if someone did

The visceral discomfort you feel about having a surgery to change your body, how uncomfortable and wrong that feels, and how unhappy you would be if someone did that to you? The feeling that you're having, is gender dysphoria. That's what trans people feel all the time, every single fucking minute of their lives, every time they look down getting a painful reminder that their body isn't Right; until they fix it - which is a capital-C Cure. Problem solved, forever. That sounds pretty fucking great to me. Why wouldn't you let people live how they want to?

NewEntryHN 4y ago
OP doesn't question the issue nor the necessity to fix it. He questions the solution.
Teever 4y ago
Here's a thought experiment. What if we had a simple, effective, and side-effect free pharmacutical treatment for BIID? what if someone could take a cheap pill every morning and they suddenly felt fine with their leg that they would otherwise be compelled to cut off? This would obviously be better than hobbling someone with crutches or a wheel chair and a disability cheque, better for society abd the individual too. Now what if a doctor decided one day to test this treatment on someone with gender dysphoria and lo and behold it worked just as well for them? The patient suddenly felt great about their body, great about their appearance and they stopped obsessing about changing it with risky and painful surgeries. This cheap and effective pharmacuticial treatment would instantly become a first line treatment for gender dysphoria, right? That sounds pretty fucking great to me. Why wouldn't you want people to live their life how they were born to?
- curious-im 4y ago
  I guess because they feel that they feel like they born to be their preferred gender. The idea that there will be a treatment that will make me feel like a gender I'm not sounds pretty f-cking terrible to me. Try this experiment on yourself and think that there is a treatment to make you think you are woman/man. How's it make you feel? And together with that, reflect on what exactly make you be a man/woman - your body or your psyche. There is a lot parallels between gender dysphoria and BIID, but GD is bit more than just 'this is not my body'.
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  Why don't we expand your thought experiment? What if said pill also cured homosexuality? If it made bisexual people straight? This treatment would instantly become highly valued for all sorts of religious groups and families. And if they're perfectly happy after the treatment, what's the problem? Why don't you want people to live as 'nature' intends? What your arguing for in your thought experiment is, effectively, treatment designed to radically change someone's sense of identity without side effects. It's a thought experiment that falls apart once you expand it to other things that were once commonly thought of as mental illness.
  - Teever 4y ago
    It's simple. Being bisexual or homosexual doesn't intrinsically cause any physical or mental anguish for people in that state. People with BIID and Gender dysphoria will kill themselves if they don't receive treatment, and will otherwise ha e poor life outcomes due to the adjacent side effects like depression and self harm that comes. The only negatives that being bisexual and homosexual have come from external sources as you state. In other words bisexual and homsexuao people are in a state of homeostasis while people with BIID and Gender dysphoria are not.
    - fzeroracer 4y ago
      I mean as a bisexual male, I can definitely state I've had my fair share of mental anguish over having a thing for men in the past so I don't exactly buy your post about being in 'homeostasis' as you've described. That feels more like post-hoc rationalization for a terrible thought experiment than anything else. Especially since people that suffer from gender dysphoria tend to have worse outcomes due to external sources and lack of validation, much like what would happen to severely repressed gay people in religious communities. And to further play the devils advocate there were plenty of people at the time that believed gay people were a blight on society for multiple reasons. Hence why conversion camps were a thing.
      - Teever 4y ago
        but is the source of the mental anguish that you've experienced internal or external? Like if you were born in a society where religious zealots who espoused bisexual bigotry just didnt exist, toxic masculinity wasnt a thing and there was a bunch of bisexual representation in media would you have had that anguish? very unlikely. People with gender dysphoria face the same negative external influences as you do, arguably worse (lets be real, much much worse) but if it would be removed and they lived in a world without it they would still be discontent with their state, to the point of depression which would result in a poor quality of life and for many suicide. Thats the hallmark of the disorder. thats what gender dysphoria is. Lets do another thought experiment, what if we lived in a society where gender reassignment surgery was impossible. like lets ssay we just didnt have the advancements in surgical techniques necessary, but we had much better pharamcuticals. If surgery was impossible, but giving someone a pill like I described in the first thiufht experiment was possible that would be the morally correct thing to do as opposed to doing nothing, right?
- ncmncm 4y ago
  That is what we do for people with anxiety disorder. They often resist treatment, are finally persuaded to try it, and almost all are afterward regretful that they did not get treatment years earlier.
- anaisbetts 4y ago
  > That sounds pretty fucking great to me. Why wouldn't you want people to live their life how they were born to? People have an inherent, fundamental Right to their own body, to mold it into the image that they choose. If they want to take your magic pill? They have every Right to, good on 'em. But if they want their body to be a certain way, they have that Right too.
  - at_a_remove 4y ago
    Maybe, maybe. If they're willing to foot the bill and if nobody has to be coerced into performing the surgery. Oh, and they sign a "no regrets, tough shit" contract. Right now the NHS is dealing with a "Why didn't anyone stop me? All I got was positive support!" situation from someone who is detransing.

NewEntryHN 4y ago

OP doesn't question the issue nor the necessity to fix it. He questions the solution.

Teever 4y ago

Here's a thought experiment. What if we had a simple, effective, and side-effect free pharmacutical treatment for BIID? what if someone could take a cheap pill every morning and they suddenly felt fine with their leg that they would otherwise be compelled to cut off? This would obviously be better than hobbling someone with crutches or a wheel chair and a disability cheque, better for society abd the individual too. Now what if a doctor decided one day to test this treatment on someone with gender dysphoria and lo and behold it worked just as well for them? The patient suddenly felt great about their body, great about their appearance and they stopped obsessing about changing it with risky and painful surgeries. This cheap and effective pharmacuticial treatment would instantly become a first line treatment for gender dysphoria, right? That sounds pretty fucking great to me. Why wouldn't you want people to live their life how they were born to?

curious-im 4y ago
I guess because they feel that they feel like they born to be their preferred gender. The idea that there will be a treatment that will make me feel like a gender I'm not sounds pretty f-cking terrible to me. Try this experiment on yourself and think that there is a treatment to make you think you are woman/man. How's it make you feel? And together with that, reflect on what exactly make you be a man/woman - your body or your psyche. There is a lot parallels between gender dysphoria and BIID, but GD is bit more than just 'this is not my body'.
fzeroracer 4y ago
Why don't we expand your thought experiment? What if said pill also cured homosexuality? If it made bisexual people straight? This treatment would instantly become highly valued for all sorts of religious groups and families. And if they're perfectly happy after the treatment, what's the problem? Why don't you want people to live as 'nature' intends? What your arguing for in your thought experiment is, effectively, treatment designed to radically change someone's sense of identity without side effects. It's a thought experiment that falls apart once you expand it to other things that were once commonly thought of as mental illness.
- Teever 4y ago
  It's simple. Being bisexual or homosexual doesn't intrinsically cause any physical or mental anguish for people in that state. People with BIID and Gender dysphoria will kill themselves if they don't receive treatment, and will otherwise ha e poor life outcomes due to the adjacent side effects like depression and self harm that comes. The only negatives that being bisexual and homosexual have come from external sources as you state. In other words bisexual and homsexuao people are in a state of homeostasis while people with BIID and Gender dysphoria are not.
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    I mean as a bisexual male, I can definitely state I've had my fair share of mental anguish over having a thing for men in the past so I don't exactly buy your post about being in 'homeostasis' as you've described. That feels more like post-hoc rationalization for a terrible thought experiment than anything else. Especially since people that suffer from gender dysphoria tend to have worse outcomes due to external sources and lack of validation, much like what would happen to severely repressed gay people in religious communities. And to further play the devils advocate there were plenty of people at the time that believed gay people were a blight on society for multiple reasons. Hence why conversion camps were a thing.
    - Teever 4y ago
      but is the source of the mental anguish that you've experienced internal or external? Like if you were born in a society where religious zealots who espoused bisexual bigotry just didnt exist, toxic masculinity wasnt a thing and there was a bunch of bisexual representation in media would you have had that anguish? very unlikely. People with gender dysphoria face the same negative external influences as you do, arguably worse (lets be real, much much worse) but if it would be removed and they lived in a world without it they would still be discontent with their state, to the point of depression which would result in a poor quality of life and for many suicide. Thats the hallmark of the disorder. thats what gender dysphoria is. Lets do another thought experiment, what if we lived in a society where gender reassignment surgery was impossible. like lets ssay we just didnt have the advancements in surgical techniques necessary, but we had much better pharamcuticals. If surgery was impossible, but giving someone a pill like I described in the first thiufht experiment was possible that would be the morally correct thing to do as opposed to doing nothing, right?
ncmncm 4y ago
That is what we do for people with anxiety disorder. They often resist treatment, are finally persuaded to try it, and almost all are afterward regretful that they did not get treatment years earlier.
anaisbetts 4y ago
> That sounds pretty fucking great to me. Why wouldn't you want people to live their life how they were born to? People have an inherent, fundamental Right to their own body, to mold it into the image that they choose. If they want to take your magic pill? They have every Right to, good on 'em. But if they want their body to be a certain way, they have that Right too.
- at_a_remove 4y ago
  Maybe, maybe. If they're willing to foot the bill and if nobody has to be coerced into performing the surgery. Oh, and they sign a "no regrets, tough shit" contract. Right now the NHS is dealing with a "Why didn't anyone stop me? All I got was positive support!" situation from someone who is detransing.