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> genocide > confiscation of their property and land Which is how they got it too, so at the very least I would be careful about using that as justification.

> genocide > confiscation of their property and land Which is how they got it too, so at the very least I would be careful about using that as justification. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti#Spanish_history_(1492%E2%80%931625) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti#Spanish_histo... "Following the arrival of Europeans, La Hispaniola's indigenous Taino population suffered greatly to near extinction, in possibly the worst case of depopulation in the Americas." I don't think that just because it's different people now on both sides makes it possible to use such actions to argue from a moral high ground, the power difference and who oppressed whom remained in place even though the peoples changed.

Glawen 4y ago
You forgot to mention that it was due to diseases carried by europeans, it was not voluntary. The 5000 white killed the day of independence of Haiti was voluntary.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  How many voluntary mass killings of thousands of people did the europeans not commit in their clash with the new world?
  - Nesco 4y ago
    This is textbook whataboutism
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      That starts with nosianu's post a few levels up, not here, don't you agree? My response is trying to poke a hole in what Glawen said to deflect.
      - nosianu 4y ago
        Not quite sure about where we ended up here, but just to clarify, just in case. I don't think it is whataboutism when it is relevant. I think it should have been considered in the initial argument, the one I replied to, to begin with. The "genocide of its white population and confiscation of their property and land." - from the comment I replied to - was preceded by terrible atrocities by the people then in power against those who revolted (also see the comment from ambrozk). I think that is relevant to the discussion. Whataboutism brings in stuff that is not relevant and unrelated, to distract. I think I'm still right inside the same topic, one leading to the other.
  - randunel 4y ago
    As a European whose country suffered and was enslaved for long periods of time, I take offence in the rhetoric of "Europeans" committing such crimes. Be specific, a subset of European nations, a subset of American nations, and a subset of Asian nations try to dominate others through violence. So, name your country if you've done such deeds, but keep mine out of it.
    - orangepurple 4y ago
      To add to this, there are 87 distinct peoples in Europe (Pan and Pfeil (2004))
    - EdwardDiego 4y ago
      Your country joined the Axis, massacred Jews, fought alongside Nazi Germany in Ukraine, and annexed Transnistria. Really weird hill you've chosen to take offense and die on. But sure, a subset of European nations try to dominate others through violence. And your country is in that set.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    Don't put every european nation on the same scale when it goes to mass killings. Here the subject is Haiti, now please tell me how many voluntary mass killings happened.
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  Yeah, the Spanish were renowned for their moderation in Central and South America... they never killed anyone on purpose... Seriously?
ambrozk 4y ago
With Haiti, you don't have to go all the way back to the settling of the island for brutality. The closest analogue I've read to the behavior of the French who ruled Haiti was the treatment of camp inmates by the Nazis. Haiti was the worst colony in the Caribbean. It made the antebellum South look like a utopia in comparison. The life expectancy for slaves sent to Haiti was abysmal. Most of them died on the plantations within about 10 years of stepping on the island. So many died that in order to sustain the slave population, the French had to import tens of thousands every year. They wanted to create a native slave population, but it didn't work because they worked the slave women so hard that they made them infertile. They ruled by means of terror. The stories are sickening. They executed disobedient slaves by stuffing their rectums with gunpowder and blowing them up. They strapped them down and poured boiling cane sugar over their heads. They buried them up to their necks and smeared them with honey so that they'd be eaten by insects. For punishment, they cut off their slaves' limbs and poured hot wax on the stumps. This had gone on for a century prior to the revolution. By that time, there were about 500,000 slaves being ruled over by 30,000 whites (as well as, partially, 40,000 mixed-race Haitians). It was not smart or good for Dessalines to massacre the 4000 or so whites that he did, but that act is so minor in comparison with the horror that the French visited on Haiti for 100 years that it's barely worth talking about.

Glawen 4y ago

You forgot to mention that it was due to diseases carried by europeans, it was not voluntary. The 5000 white killed the day of independence of Haiti was voluntary.

kzrdude 4y ago
How many voluntary mass killings of thousands of people did the europeans not commit in their clash with the new world?
- Nesco 4y ago
  This is textbook whataboutism
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    That starts with nosianu's post a few levels up, not here, don't you agree? My response is trying to poke a hole in what Glawen said to deflect.
    - nosianu 4y ago
      Not quite sure about where we ended up here, but just to clarify, just in case. I don't think it is whataboutism when it is relevant. I think it should have been considered in the initial argument, the one I replied to, to begin with. The "genocide of its white population and confiscation of their property and land." - from the comment I replied to - was preceded by terrible atrocities by the people then in power against those who revolted (also see the comment from ambrozk). I think that is relevant to the discussion. Whataboutism brings in stuff that is not relevant and unrelated, to distract. I think I'm still right inside the same topic, one leading to the other.
- randunel 4y ago
  As a European whose country suffered and was enslaved for long periods of time, I take offence in the rhetoric of "Europeans" committing such crimes. Be specific, a subset of European nations, a subset of American nations, and a subset of Asian nations try to dominate others through violence. So, name your country if you've done such deeds, but keep mine out of it.
  - orangepurple 4y ago
    To add to this, there are 87 distinct peoples in Europe (Pan and Pfeil (2004))
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    Your country joined the Axis, massacred Jews, fought alongside Nazi Germany in Ukraine, and annexed Transnistria. Really weird hill you've chosen to take offense and die on. But sure, a subset of European nations try to dominate others through violence. And your country is in that set.
- Glawen 4y ago
  Don't put every european nation on the same scale when it goes to mass killings. Here the subject is Haiti, now please tell me how many voluntary mass killings happened.
EdwardDiego 4y ago
Yeah, the Spanish were renowned for their moderation in Central and South America... they never killed anyone on purpose... Seriously?

ambrozk 4y ago

With Haiti, you don't have to go all the way back to the settling of the island for brutality. The closest analogue I've read to the behavior of the French who ruled Haiti was the treatment of camp inmates by the Nazis. Haiti was the worst colony in the Caribbean. It made the antebellum South look like a utopia in comparison. The life expectancy for slaves sent to Haiti was abysmal. Most of them died on the plantations within about 10 years of stepping on the island. So many died that in order to sustain the slave population, the French had to import tens of thousands every year. They wanted to create a native slave population, but it didn't work because they worked the slave women so hard that they made them infertile. They ruled by means of terror. The stories are sickening. They executed disobedient slaves by stuffing their rectums with gunpowder and blowing them up. They strapped them down and poured boiling cane sugar over their heads. They buried them up to their necks and smeared them with honey so that they'd be eaten by insects. For punishment, they cut off their slaves' limbs and poured hot wax on the stumps. This had gone on for a century prior to the revolution. By that time, there were about 500,000 slaves being ruled over by 30,000 whites (as well as, partially, 40,000 mixed-race Haitians). It was not smart or good for Dessalines to massacre the 4000 or so whites that he did, but that act is so minor in comparison with the horror that the French visited on Haiti for 100 years that it's barely worth talking about.