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I’m curious: You don’t think that being continuously exposed to government propaganda and threatened with jail/fines for dissenting opinions will increase the f

I’m curious: You don’t think that being continuously exposed to government propaganda and threatened with jail/fines for dissenting opinions will increase the frequency of “shitty people”?

gdy 4y ago
I don't see how the number of people 'denying responsibility and lying' depends on the exposure to government propaganda saying that Russia is doing good and justified thing right now. If you believe you are right and what is contrary to this belief is only a fake, you don't need to lie and there is no responsibility for something you didn't do.
- mads_ravn 4y ago
  Then we fundamentally disagree in how human psychology works: I believe that if authorities (be they government officials, parents or others) habitually lie and cheat, then that behavior becomes socially sanctioned as a way to get ahead. Thus you end up with more “shitty people” (and a worse society)
  - gdy 4y ago
    No argument here, but my point is that if you believe lies and don't notice that you are being cheated, it doesn't corrupt you.
    - mads_ravn 4y ago
      Again, I don’t think we are going to end up agreeing as I believe that a significant portion of the Russian people are aware, that they are being lied to, but are to scared to do anything about this. Please also note, that I don’t believe this applied to all Russians. The few I’ve interacted with more closely have been nice (the opposite of “shitty”)
      - gdy 4y ago
        "a significant portion of the Russian people are aware, that they are being lied to, but are to scared to do anything about this" Well, some of them must be trying to rationalize and normalize what's happening to reduce psychological suffering, but calling them bad on these grounds has a distinct feeling of blaming the victim.
  - gdy 4y ago
    And by the way, when you hear Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen say 'The United States will impose harsh consequences on countries that break the international economic order' and then ironically blaming Russia instead of her own country [0], do you feel how society becomes a little bit worse? [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/yellen-says-us-will-impose-harsh-consequences-countries-abusing-global-economic-2022-07-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/yellen-says-us-will-impose-...
    - mads_ravn 4y ago
      Hmm, I fail to see how this is even remotely comparable to Russian propaganda/related to the topic at hand, but I’ll give you that the “West” has also behaved atrociously in the past. Though please be aware, that arguments like the one you are trying to make, has a distinct feeling of whataboutism.
      - gdy 4y ago
        "I fail to see how this is even remotely comparable to Russian propaganda/related to the topic at hand" Ehh, perfectly/directly? I gave you a fine example of "denying responsibility and lying" which should have corrupting influence on the recipients. I wonder if you notice this influence. "whataboutism" Any mention of this word has a distinct feeling of double standards.

I’m curious: You don’t think that being continuously exposed to government propaganda and threatened with jail/fines for dissenting opinions will increase the frequency of “shitty people”?

gdy 4y ago

I don't see how the number of people 'denying responsibility and lying' depends on the exposure to government propaganda saying that Russia is doing good and justified thing right now. If you believe you are right and what is contrary to this belief is only a fake, you don't need to lie and there is no responsibility for something you didn't do.

mads_ravn 4y ago
Then we fundamentally disagree in how human psychology works: I believe that if authorities (be they government officials, parents or others) habitually lie and cheat, then that behavior becomes socially sanctioned as a way to get ahead. Thus you end up with more “shitty people” (and a worse society)
- gdy 4y ago
  No argument here, but my point is that if you believe lies and don't notice that you are being cheated, it doesn't corrupt you.
  - mads_ravn 4y ago
    Again, I don’t think we are going to end up agreeing as I believe that a significant portion of the Russian people are aware, that they are being lied to, but are to scared to do anything about this. Please also note, that I don’t believe this applied to all Russians. The few I’ve interacted with more closely have been nice (the opposite of “shitty”)
    - gdy 4y ago
      "a significant portion of the Russian people are aware, that they are being lied to, but are to scared to do anything about this" Well, some of them must be trying to rationalize and normalize what's happening to reduce psychological suffering, but calling them bad on these grounds has a distinct feeling of blaming the victim.
- gdy 4y ago
  And by the way, when you hear Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen say 'The United States will impose harsh consequences on countries that break the international economic order' and then ironically blaming Russia instead of her own country [0], do you feel how society becomes a little bit worse? [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/yellen-says-us-will-impose-harsh-consequences-countries-abusing-global-economic-2022-07-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/yellen-says-us-will-impose-...
  - mads_ravn 4y ago
    Hmm, I fail to see how this is even remotely comparable to Russian propaganda/related to the topic at hand, but I’ll give you that the “West” has also behaved atrociously in the past. Though please be aware, that arguments like the one you are trying to make, has a distinct feeling of whataboutism.
    - gdy 4y ago
      "I fail to see how this is even remotely comparable to Russian propaganda/related to the topic at hand" Ehh, perfectly/directly? I gave you a fine example of "denying responsibility and lying" which should have corrupting influence on the recipients. I wonder if you notice this influence. "whataboutism" Any mention of this word has a distinct feeling of double standards.